Big oops ... need suggestions

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charlie b

charlie b

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Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

I'm still thinking about cutting the debate off at 299. :D

And the debate about the switch and the outlet may have settled down, but there is still disagreement within the ranks. That is to say, I am right, and Al still hasn't agreed. :D :D
 
al hildenbrand

al hildenbrand

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Minnesota
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Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Charlie,

You are a gifted communicator in this medium. And some of this can settle on popularity.

However, it is the language of the NEC that is adopted into law in most jurisdictions.

It is the language of the NEC that is enforced.

My point, about an outlet occuring when a switch, on the premises wiring, is used to control utilization equipment at another outlet on the premises wiring, comes from: </font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Art. 100 Definition: Controller</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Art. 100 Definition: Outlet</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Art. 100 Definition: Premises Wiring (System)</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">404.14 Rating and Use of Snap Switches</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">A cohesive use of the language and definitions of the Code itself.

As I understand your objection, you are relying on document(s) other than the legally binding (in most jurisdictions) NEC? to refute the language of the NEC?.

Also, while you are willing to place your PE seal on a bedroom non-AFCI protected switch, if that switch is in an occupancy in a juridiction where the AHJ has ruled that ALL 120-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuit switches in bedrooms must have AFCI, then your PE seal doesn't matter. It will not trump the AHJ automatically.

And your willingness to take my client aside and tell them that they shouldn't pay me for this installation, when the AHJ says it is to be installed, well. . .that's . . .obfuscating, at least.
 
don_resqcapt19

don_resqcapt19

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Illinois
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retired electrician
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Al,
I am reading the same code sections as you are, and the code says a switch is not an outlet. :D Yes, I know that you read it differently, but I am not using any outside source to come to my conclusion.
Don
 
JohnE

JohnE

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Location
Milford, MA
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

I haven't been on the forum much in the last few days, so I'm sorry that I've missed out on all the fun.

I agree with Al.

I don't want to rehash everything, and I can see the argument from the other perspective; but unless a ruling was made from my state board of examiners, I would require AFCI protection of the switch. I believe that to be the intent.

With an NFPA membership, I believe that one can get an official interpretation from NFPA.

With all due respect, how does a PE seal qualify an installation for NEC code compliancy any more than an electrical license? In MA, if you were to stamp an installation that were not code compliant and inspector fails job, there are 2 solutions: 1. Correct per inspectors interpretation, or 2. Appeal to Board of Examiners.
 
jwelectric

jwelectric

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Location
North Carolina
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

looking for 48 more post
:D :D :D

Edited to add (maybe 47 more unless i bribe someone)
:D :D

[ October 21, 2005, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
 
charlie b

charlie b

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Lockport, IL
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Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by j_erickson: With all due respect, how does a PE seal qualify an installation for NEC code compliancy any more than an electrical license?
Click to expand...
It doesn't. In fact, when a PE seals a drawing or other document, it says nothing whatsoever about code compliance. Nor does it say anything about compliance with the contract, or with applicable technical standards, or the owner's wishes. The seal does not say "I certify this meets code."

A PE Seal says one thing, and one thing only. It says, "This work was done by me, or under my supervision."

When I assert that I would be willing to seal a drawing with the design I described earlier, what I am saying is that I am confident it would be the right thing to do, that I am confident that it would comply with code, and that I would be willing to announce to the world that I had done that work. That is how strongly I feel that my perspective is the correct one.

As a side note, I have no objections to protecting the switch under discussion with an AFCI device. But I would call that a design choice, and not a code requirement.

As to my recommendations about payment, I will tell the owner it is not required by code, you will tell the owner that it is required by code, and the owner will decide what to do. I work for the owner, not the installer, and I am bound to protect the owner's interests as best I know how. If you build something that is outside your contract, and that I believe was not required by code, I will so inform the owner. My recommendation to you is that you have this discussion with the owner before you do the work. It is always better to discuss the "will you get paid or not" questions before you have invested your own time and money by performing the work.
 
jwelectric

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Charlie B,
I once wired a home that had an attached and a detached garage. The detached garage set at the back of the property. On the specs for the house it said, ?Electrical contractor will provide boxes for two lights at garages?

I took this to say that each garage was to have two lights. The builder and homeowner took this to say one on each. When it came time to trim I had one of two choices. To keep this story short I amended my bid to show one fixture at each garage and bought two very expensive fixtures to keep the home owner happy and so I could get paid.

The fixtures, around $200 was cheaper than the battle to win and the bad publicity I would have won for free. At the expense of a weeks pay it was a well learned lesson that when in doubt, ask!

[ October 21, 2005, 06:01 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
 
peter d

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Hey everyone. I'm a little new here so bear with me. I was just wondering if I need to AFCI protect a light switch in a bed room that controls an outside floodlight. The floodlights are not on the bedroom circuit.

:confused: :confused: :confused:
 
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