Big oops ... need suggestions

[electric_instructor]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

*According to Article 100, an outlet is defined as a point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply equipment that utilizes electric energy for electronic, electromechanical, chemical, heating, lighting, or similar purposes [100]. This would include a receptacle outlet, a lighting outlet, but not a switch.

Read carefully the very first sentence, - " a point on the wiring system at WHICH CURRENT IS TAKEN TO SUPPLY EQUIPMENT that UTILIZES electric energy.....

In what way is current TAKEN from the SYSTEM, or UTILIZED, at a switch? The switch is PART of the system. The point that it is TAKEN from the SYSTEM, or UTILIZED is the receptacle, or lighting fixture.

 

[marc deschenes]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

AL read the first sentance.,

"That interior and exterior wiring, including power , lighting, control, and signal circuit wiring together withall their associated hardware, fittings, and wiring devices, both permanently and temporarily installed , that extends from the service point or source of power, such as a battery, a solar photovoltalic system ,or a generator,transformer ,or converter windings, to the outlet(s)."

the next sentance refers to "wiring internal to appliances, luminaires, motors, controllers, motor control centers, and similar equipment".

There is no internal wiring employed by a general use snap switch. Thats all . Just so you know , I just cracked one open and found no wires.

The key words are WIRING INTERNAL TO .....

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

electric_instructor,

Perhaps you can show me the error in NEC language, that I am missing, that negates my point.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Marc,

Then how does the current get through a busway? There's no "wiring" in that, in the sense that you seem to be saying round filaments of conductive material is all that "wiring" is.

Wiring is a general term used an enormous number of times in the Code, 400, by the count of my Electronic version's search tool.

I take it to mean "the conductive current path".

 

[marc deschenes]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

I do not.

 

[electric_instructor]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Al
You answered your own question, as quoted

"The current does not "supply" the switch (the switch does not utilize energy so it cannot "take" current)."

Remember the definition? A point on the wiring system at which current is TAKEN......

If it doesn't TAKE, or UTILIZE current, or electrical energy, then...........?

 

[iwire]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Mike (JW) is going to be so happy when he comes back from class.

 

[marc deschenes]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Al, what you have described is a conductor not a wire. An electric buss does indeed conduct electricity it does not make it a wire.,or wiring.It is called busway and the conductors are factory installed and are usually bars , rods or tubes.

 

[iwire]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by marc deschenes:
An electric buss does indeed conduct electricity it does not make it a wire.,or wiring.

??

A buss is definitely premise wiring.

Not a question in my mind about that.

Where do you get the idea wiring has to be a wire?

 

[allenwayne]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

To all that have posted and followed this thread.
"This is the apitamy of hair splitting at its finest"Who else but a room full of electricians could take a nickel and pass it off as a dime and debate the fact that it is a dime and not an nickel and make it sound believable

 

[LarryFine]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by al hildenbrand:

Originally posted by al hildenbrand:

Originally posted by LarryFine
Likewise, a switch (unless it contains a pilot light) does not utilize any electricity.

A receptacle does not utilize energy either. It is merely the point at which the Premises Wiring (System) is bounded, stops. For that matter, an outlet does not utilize energy. I think this is part of where we are hoodwinking ourselves in this distinction between switch and outlet.

Utilization equipment current passes from and to the Service Point to the Premises Wiring (System).

The utilization equipment current passes from and to the Premises Wiring (System) at an outlet.

Article 100 Definition of Premises Wiring (System) is clear to tell us that a controller (a switch) is not part of the Premises Wiring (System) even though the controller is connected to the Premises Wiring (System). Current in the controller is utilization equipment current which is passing from and to the Premises Wiring (System).

The Code does not prohibit having two outlets in series with each other.

A receptacle and a switch are both terminated to the ends of the Premises Wiring (System). Neither of them utilize energy. The current in them is that of utilization equipment, equipment that is not part of the Premises Wiring (System). Both the receptacle and switch look like, to me, that they are installed at outlets to the Premises Wiring (System) and the only current in them is utilization equipment current.

Al, it seems that your main point is that, because a switch isn't considered part of the wiring system, it takes current from the syetem, and then returns it to the system to feed the load. And then you say that a load also takes current from the syetm and then returns it, thus the comparison.

In my opinion, a load doesn't return current, it uses (utilizes) it, unless there is a short circuit. And again, the presence of a receptacle or hard-wired load is what makes an outlet box an outlet. I never claimed that the receptacle itself IS the outlet, just that it makes the box the outlet.

To me, current leaving, then returning to, the system (as through a device) is not what "taken from the system" menas. If the presence of a device (all of which are not part of the syetem, we'll concede) is what defines an outlet, then lighting/luminaire boxes would not be outlets.

Therefore, we must conclude that "taking current from the system" (and then returning it with no voltage drop) is not what makes an outlet; it is the connection (or possible connection, for a receptacle) of a load that actually uses power to do work.

Some outlets have separate switches, and some don't. If you had an existing pull-chain-operated light in a bedroom (pre-AFCI), and decided to convert it to being wall-switch controlled, would you require making this entire circuit now be AFCI protected? I wouldn't.

 

[allenwayne]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

If you had an existing pull-chain-operated light in a bedroom (pre-AFCI), and decided to convert it to being wall-switch controlled, would you require making this entire circuit now be AFCI protected? I wouldn't.

Well if that was posted on page 1 then we wouldn`t be looking for that ominus 300

 

[sparky_magoo]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Are you going to run a nuetral to the new switch location? Which, BTW is not an outlet. Or, are you just going to run a hot and a switch leg?

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by Larry Fine:
Al, it seems that your main point is that, because a switch isn't considered part of the wiring system, it takes current from the syetem, and then returns it to the system to feed the load.

No, the load takes the current that the switch controls.

The Outlet definition does not talk about voltage, only current, and only current that is "taken" from a point on the premises wiring. "Returning" is not part of the outlet definition. Current IN the premises wiring is not part of the definition.

the presence of a receptacle or hard-wired load is what makes an outlet box an outlet

The box is not an outlet, it is the "point" on the premises wiring.

If the presence of a device (all of which are not part of the syetem, we'll concede)

I don't think we should concede this, at least I don't. The internal wiring of things listed in the last sentence of the definition of Premises Wiring (System) is what is not part of the premises wiring. With regards to a switch used as a controller connected to the premises wiring and controlling another outlet, then, yes, that device's internal wiring is not part of the premises wiring.

If you had an existing pull-chain-operated light in a bedroom (pre-AFCI), and decided to convert it to being wall-switch controlled, would you require making this entire circuit now be AFCI protected?

Wow! Excellent example of yet another bit of work that raises the question that is at the heart of this discussion. Your answer to this question is no, I say yes.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by Larry Fine:
If the presence of a device (all of which are not part of the syetem, we'll concede)

As an additional thought, receptacles, which are devices, ARE part of the premises wiring. The "point" where the prongs of a plug meets the internal contacts of the receptacle is the outlet.

An electric oven with a flex whip that is part of the appliance will connect to the premises wiring inside a j-box. There, the "point" will be under the wire nuts or what ever terminates the appliance conductors to the wiring inside the j-box. This particular one is interesting because it shows materials making up the whip that could be used on the premises wiring as a wiring method, but because they are attached to the appliance and part of its listing, they are outside the NEC, not part of the Premises Wiring (System).

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Iwire,

There. That's as close as I'm going to get to your theory that I am saying that wirenuts are outlets.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

JW better get home soon or he's gonna miss it!

 

[sparky_magoo]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Let's say I am working in a ten year old home. The HO has asked me if I can switch a bedroom receptacle for his floor lamp. I open the single gang switch box containing the switch for the ceiling light. I discover the NM supplying the receptacle in question loops through the switch box. I install a duplex switch to control the receptacle and the ceiling light. Does this simple ten minute job require an AFCI breaker to be installed?

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by electric_instructor:
Al
You answered your own question, as quoted

"The current does not "supply" the switch (the switch does not utilize energy so it cannot "take" current)."

Remember the definition? A point on the wiring system at which current is TAKEN......

If it doesn't TAKE, or UTILIZE current, or electrical energy, then...........?

electric_instructor,

Does the definition of Outlet say where the utilization equipment is?

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by sparky_magoo:
I install a duplex switch to control the receptacle and the ceiling light. Does this simple ten minute job require an AFCI breaker to be installed?

Great question! This is begging the question that I am answering from the NEC language itself.

Unless local ordinance waives the application of 210.12 for existing dwellings, then I say yes. The second switch, even when on a common yoke, is a new outlet, therefore, 210.12 applies.