Big oops ... need suggestions

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Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by al hildenbrand:
Iwire,

There. That's as close as I'm going to get to your theory that I am saying that wirenuts are outlets. ;) :cool:
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Yeah I saw that, I had to leave the room for a minute but was planing on commenting on that what I came back.

In the case of the oven IMO the whip is part of the premise wiring system, the 'oven outlet' is indeed at the point of the wire nuts or terminals at the rear of the oven. :cool:

I have never seen a factory installed whip on an oven, on a cook top yes.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Bob,

Congrats on #300!

Factory installed oven whips are actually common in my experience for the last two decades.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by al hildenbrand:


Unless local ordinance waives the application of 210.12 for existing dwellings, then I say yes. The second switch, even when on a common yoke, is a new outlet, therefore, 210.12 applies.
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Your missing the point, the new swich is not a new outlet at all. I don't see how you could possibly see installing the duplex switch as installing a new outlet.

Let's go for 400!
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by al hildenbrand:
The second switch, even when on a common yoke, is a new outlet, therefore, 210.12 applies.
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So now even a half of a device defines an outlet. :eek:
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Well Sparky, unless I'm convinced otherwise, the "wiring internal to the controller", the switch is not on the premises wiring. It is that connection between premises wiring and NOT premises wiring that is the "point" of the outlet. Two switches, side by side, will have two different internal wiring areas, hence, in your example, one existed, and one was added. The NEW one falls under 210.12, while the old one is grandfathered.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Here is a 300 plus thread that I have not been a big part of the debate.

I do have an opinion and it is the same opinion that I had the last time that I made that opinion, or it goes something like that.

I am so happy to see this thread reach 300.

Thank each and every one of you that contributed to this deep desire of mine.

I shall down load this thread and have it bronzed to hang on my wall as a keepsake.
I will relish in the memories that it will bring to life each and every time I look at it.
I only wish that there was some way that I could repay those that has helped me reach this long desired goal.
My I always be worthy of such a great blessing.

Again thank each and every one you for taking the time to contribute.
:D
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Iwire, the busway conductors are not part of the premises wiring system they are internal , they are part of the equipment. Look at Art.3001.(b) as well as the definition for premises wiring system.

I'm not sure how this makes a switch in a bedroom controlling the light outside the bedroom an outlet. The outlet for current is at the light(equipment) .
I looked through 368 they never refer to the conductors in busway as anything but conductors. you will not find the word wire or wiring to describe the integral conductors of busway.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by marc deschenes:
Iwire, the busway conductors are not part of the premises wiring system they are internal , they are part of the equipment. Look at Art.3001.(b) as well as the definition for premises wiring system.........
...... I looked through 368 they never refer to the conductors in busway as anything but conductors. you will not find the word wire or wiring to describe the integral conductors of busway.
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I have looked at the definition of premise wiring system, have you? :D

Chapter 3 Wiring Methods and Materials

And appliances, luminaires (fixtures), motors, controllers, or motor control centers are located in Chapter 4 of the NEC.

Chapter 4 Equipment for General Use

:D

[ October 22, 2005, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Does the definition of premises wiring system depend on the method employed or where that wiring is in relation to the equipment.eg internal or external . I think the conductors in the busway are integral, and factory installed and not part of the premises wiring system or provided for by art 300 .
I could be wrong but, I still don't see how this makes a switch an outlet .
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by marc deschenes:
Does the definition of premises wiring system depend on the method employed or where that wiring is in relation to the equipment.eg internal or external . I think the conductors in the busway are integral, and factory installed and not part of the premises wiring system or provided for by art 300 .
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So you believe that the bussway section being in Chapter 3 is a mistake?

Originally posted by marc deschenes:
I could be wrong but, I still don't see how this makes a switch an outlet .
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I never said it did. (Neither did Al)

I just disagree with your statement that a bussway is not a wiring method.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

I guess what I'm saying is that busway can be part of an electrcal instalation that employs both premises wiring systems and those systems that are integral to the equipment. To put it another way I'm all of a sudden not sure that recognized method equals premises wiring system??

I'm just trying to learn.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by marc deschenes:
I'm just trying to learn.
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Here, here. I agree with that! You should see where I started off this process in my thinking that has allowed me to arrive here, on my soapbox. The links to it are back around page 8, or so. I have learned a huge amount, in large part due the good graces and tolerance of the extraordinary minds here at this Forum.

C'mon in and stomp around a bit!

I picked on busway because it was an easy target and comparison to the internal conductors inside a switch (or a receptacle, for that matter).

There are other examples of conductors that are used inside the area of influence of the NEC. The buss inside the electrical service center, the common load center, used in a dwellings comes to mind. Or, although I don't see this much, flat conductor used under carpet squares (is this still done?). One is service equipment and the other is branch circuit wiring.

The way I think of the Premises Wiring (System) is that this is the area between the Power Company and the Utilization Equipment, and it is the area that is under the sway of the NEC.

That's part of what makes the Premises Wiring (System) definition of a little hole in the continuity of the System , at a switch used as a controller (among other things), so strange and interesting to me.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Anyone care for an update on my original post?

I went back to the house today and installed a two-pole AFCI breaker in a new subpanel, wired it all up, and turned it on. Tripped immediately. Not again...

After double-checking that I had wired it correctly, I figured that I was either dealing with a newly discovered arc fault on one of the two circuits, or a ground-neutral short somewhere. Since nothing was pulling any current, I figured the arc-fault theory wasn't the one to pursue. So that left me with 14 receptacle outlets in the two bedrooms, seven switch boxes, three bathroom receptacles, eight light fixtures, and two ceiling fans. My lucky day.

Six hours later, I managed to trace the problem to a ceiling fan that the previous homeowner installed with NM to a pancake box. I removed it from the circuit, and the AFCI stopped tripping.

Lesson learned: I won't even think of putting an AFCI or GFCI on a circuit I didn't install myself unless the homeowner is willing to pay T&M for me to troubleshoot any problems with tripping that aren't connected to the work I did. I think my new policy is going to cut down on the number of people who want me to install something new in a bedroom.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Man, that's tough, Jeff.

I like your business guideline for the future. As I said earlier in this thread, your sharing this experience has been most instructive for me.
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Al, you have virtually everybody here arguing against you. You have a code guru from the UL publishing an article that is also against your view. At some point don't you at least start to think that maybe you are wrong?
 
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by al hildenbrand:
Man, that's tough, Jeff.

I like your business guideline for the future. As I said earlier in this thread, your sharing this experience has been most instructive for me.
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Glad I could return the favor, Al, since you were the one that came up with the solution I ultimately implemented. I can assure you this experience has been extremely instructive for me, as well.

I think today's job was some kind of karmic retribution for the one or two easy jobs I've had. :D
 
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