Big oops ... need suggestions

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charlie b

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Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
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Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by jeff43222:So now a person is "utilization equipment"?
Originally posted by LarryFine: Yes, especially on execution day at a prison that uses an electric chair.
Youse guys still gots it wrong!
</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The chair is the "utilization equipment."</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The point at which the chair's wires attached to something in the wall is the "outlet."</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The switch thrown by the executioner is not an outlet.</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The person sitting in the chair is an "equipment grounding conductor."</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
:D
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Charlie B,
Here in North Carolina we may end up not having anything that will fall under the term ?equipment? as it applies to electrical. Here is a little of an article that is in the fall edition of the North Carolina Council of Code Officials news letter.

? After an April 18th appeal hearing, the NC Building Codes Council issued an order erroneously suggesting that ?Equipment? is not electrical equipment.?

This is still ongoing here in NC but I do believe that the NC Electrical Code Council and the NC Ellis Cannady chapter of the IAEI will prevail.
 

allenwayne

Senior Member
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Oh boy Al ,mike just started a whole new debate
is it equiptment or electrical equiptment.I can`t wait till the doctor says I can return to work these threads are wearing me out :D
 

charlie b

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Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by jwelectric: ?After an April 18th appeal hearing, the NC Building Codes Council issued an order erroneously suggesting that ?Equipment? is not electrical equipment.?
Without knowing the context of that "order," I have no idea what it means.

But just speaking from a general view of our illustrious language, it is certainly true that the one word "equipment" and the two word phrase "electrical equipment" are not synonymous.
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Charlie B,
This is not the whole thing but the best part. The rest is about what is being sone in order to knock down this proposal.

Wait i left some out. I will be right back with it.

NCBCC Appeals and Orders, Interpretations

After an April, 18th appeal hearing, the North Carolina Building Codes Council issued an order erroneously suggesting that ?Equipment? is not electrical equipment. This recent ?Order? was written while ignoring the facts, and resulted in a ridiculous and incorrect interpretation of the National electrical code (NFPA 70). Experts from Government Inspections authorities, Testing Laboratories, and NFPA were not allowed to speak or present relevant information. In a subsequent appeal hearing on September 12th and 13th, the NC DOI was granted a ?Motion to Intervene.?

The Commissioner of Insurance lawyer subsequently utilized the NCECC IAEI?s expert witness, and there was only enough time for a few of our witnesses to speak. Their testimony showed how our Inspectors save lives by being allowed to use the NEC properly to do their jobs and protect our NC workers.

Unfortunately, the chairman of the NC Building Code Council is still insisting on changing the definition of ?Equipment? thereby attempting to dumb-down our State Code. If this is done, these actions will put our citizens at risk of electrical shock, electrocution and fire from non-certified or un-approved electrical equipment. How would these NCBCC members feel if a worker?s death was directly related to their actions? Proper knowledge of these equipment issues tells us that this outcome is very likely. Additionally as drafted the code would be futher ineffective as the proposal continues to defy scientific knowledge of electrical systems by ignoring that the system must be evaluated in it?s entirety before any part of the system can be found compliant. In simple terms one part effects the other, and this proposal?s lack of understanding would likely result in higher instances of system failures, fires, accidents, and fatalities.
Now I got it.
:)

[ October 20, 2005, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Mike, that didn't help me understand. This is all about the consequences of making a change in the wording of some rule or law. But what is the proposed change itself? What is the rule or law, what does it say now, and what are they trying to change it to? In other words, why should anyone care of "equipment" means "electrical equipment"?

Does this have to do with who needs what kind of license or permit to do what kind of work? :confused:
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

I am not real sure if I understand the full proposal myself.
The way that I understand what is going on the Building Code Council is trying to change the definition of the word of equipment as it applies to the codes.
This effect would delete the word equipment from the NEC as adopted by the state.

To give an example let?s look at the second paragraph in the scope of article 100:
Scope.
Part I of this article contains definitions intended to apply wherever the terms are used throughout this Code. Part II contains definitions applicable only to the parts of articles specifically covering installations and equipment operating at over 600 volts, nominal.

If the proposal carries the second paragraph of the NEC as adopted by NC would state:
Part I of this article contains definitions intended to apply wherever the terms are used throughout this Code. Part II contains definitions applicable only to the parts of articles specifically covering installations operating at over 600 volts, nominal.
The words ?and equipment? would be deleted.

As a contractor this would open the world to me and let me install any piece of equipment no matter of a listing or label.
:)
 

mark32

Senior Member
Location
Currently in NJ
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Just a thought. Today at work (An electrical supply house) my boss handed me two boxes full of a popular brand's AFCI's (Over 100 all together) and told me to send them back to the manufacturer. Of course I asked why and I was told they were defective. Contractors had brought them back saying they were creating fires. At this point I thought about this post. This poor guy is jumping through hoops just to get this simple circuit within code and who knows, in the end it may be best protected by a regular breaker. I know it's code and I'm all for the advancement of technologies but maybe this innovation should have been tested more thoroughly before making it a code requirement. How ironic is that, a breaker specifically designed to eliminate or reduce fires is now causing them. Please don't take all this as fact, I have no idea what the problem really is with these breakers, all I do know is I sent many back to the manufacturer today because contractors were not happy with them.
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Now that the debate over the switch being an outlet has settled down do you think that the original question can be addressed?

The question as best as I can discern is, does the new outlet installed for the fan require to be arc-fault protected?

(2002 cycle) (B) Dwelling Unit Bedrooms. All branch circuits that supply 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere outlets installed in dwelling unit bedrooms shall be protected by an arc-fault circuit interrupter listed to provide protection of the entire branch circuit.
(2005 cycle) (B) Dwelling Unit Bedrooms. All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling unit bedrooms shall be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter, combination type installed to provide protection of the branch circuit.
Both cycles of the code are referring to the circuit that supplies the outlet must be protected.
If the circuit is not being added, only an outlet is added to the existing circuit, would the existing circuit be required to be upgraded?

If we look at 395.10(1) we see that we can install knob-and-tube wiring for extensions of existing installations.
As the installation of this fan is the extension of an existing installation that did not require arc-fault at the time of installation why should the circuit require this arc-fault now?
:confused:
 

allenwayne

Senior Member
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

"If we look at 395.10(1) we see that we can install knob-and-tube wiring for extensions of existing installations"
OK I`ll bite which supply house are you going to to get what you need :D :p
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Mike,
Both cycles of the code are referring to the circuit that supplies the outlet must be protected.
If the circuit is not being added, only an outlet is added to the existing circuit, would the existing circuit be required to be upgraded?
When I read 210.12(B), I see "outlets installed", not "circuits installed". Instead, it is "circuits supplying" the "outlets installed".

To me this means, if I install an outlet, the circuit supplying it must have AFCI protection. There is no indication in the language of 210.12(B) of when the circuit is installed.

To follow on the narrow use of language that has been the thrust of my earlier debate in this thread, . . .When the Outlet is installed, one is installing the point on the Premises Wiring (System) where current is taken. Because the Outlet just installed is in a dwelling bedroom, the branch circuit supplying the outlet must be AFCI'd. I don't read a comment about whether the branch circuit (premises wiring) supplying the outlet is new or extended.
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

So, "yes, the existing circuit OCPD will need to be upgraded to include AFCI when a new outlet is extended off that existing circuit."
 
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