Big oops ... need suggestions

[electric_instructor]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

If you have a 14/2 going to a receptacle, and you remove the receptacle, & replace with a switch, then you have a DIRECT SHORT, if the switch is placed in the ON position.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by marc deschenes:

Remove the receptacle replace it with a switch.
What do you have?

I'm not sure but I know it is not a circuit.
Why?
Because there is not such thing as a switch outlet.

Would not this be the point that current is taken?
The short circuit would draw a high current and the switch would be what was utilizing the current.

In this scenario there would be no doubt about the switch being an outlet.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by marc deschenes:
Because there is not such thing as a switch outlet.

I found a switched outlet

210.70 Lighting Outlets Required.
(1) Habitable Rooms. At least one wall switch-controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom.

 

[marc deschenes]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

I don't know how to use the graemlins , can't quote well. Have a hard time with bold and many others features as well, but I know what a branch circuit is

Branch Circuit: The circuit conductors between the final overcurrent device protecting the circuit and the outlet(s).

A receptacle outlet qualifies as an outlet that can be supplied from a branch circuit .

A switch does not qualify. I don't care how many you connect or the way that they are connected , fill a room of wall space with them , they are not by definition outlets or installed at them or on a branch circuit for that matter.

A switch is not a contact device installed at the outlet.
A receptacle is.

If they were we call them switch outles and we would call them that because the would be defined that way.

Now picture a bunch of those graemlins,, the smiley ones

 

[electric_instructor]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

I never knew that a direct short, (intentional or not) was considered UTILIZATION of Power! LMAO

I was being a smart A*ss, I am of the opinion that a switch IS NOT, an outlet!

Read back in the string! I have argued that point exactly!

However, following the string, a switch that is in a bedroom, and CONTROLS an outside luminaire, COULD cause an arc, IF a neutral (or ground) is in proximity to the switch.

What is the purpose (or intent) of the requirment of an AFCI on ALL branch circuits that feed OUTLETS in a dwelleing unit?

I agree that the definitions need to be updated!

But lets just look at the INTENT of the CODE.

Electricity is a relativly new thing, if ya look back (compared to other trades) SO we are all still striving for perfection!

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by electric_instructor:
A switch doesn't UTILIZE a neutral. Possibly a requirement for a power outlet?

There are two responses for this question depending upon whether you said </font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">"power outlet"</font>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">"outlet"</font>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Each is an Article 100 Defined Term, a two word term and a one word term.

Looking only at the definition of "Outlet", the words do not specify anything about the current put back into the wiring system, only the current taken. I understand this as: a neutral may or may not be present.

Originally posted by electric_instructor:
If so, could an arc take place at the switch? Therefore, creating a need for the AFCI protection?

With respect to "need", it depends upon who one is listening too. The National State Association of Fire Marshalls, in my opinion, has emphatically stated that we all "need" AFCIs, everywhere, and that AFCIs ARE "fire detectors". The technology embodied in the common AFCI manufactured assembly has never embodied that capability.

Putting my tirade aside, "need" is not quantified in the NEC as a scale used to determine if we wire this way or that way. It does lead to a different and interesting discussion, just not part of whether a switch, used as a controller of a remote outlet, has an outlet at the point that the wiring of the switch becomes internal to the switch.

P.S. I like your tag line

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by electric_instructor:
Lets not forget that the SYSTEM in question, is not a series system. it is parallel, and utilizes BOTH sides.

Can you give me a Code reference for that?

I don't think there is anything in the NEC that prohibits series wiring.

 

[electric_instructor]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Well, I JUST KNEW I would keep the string going!

I agree that the advantages of the AFCI have yet to be proven! I would bet that given time the reliability will be proven (or at least improved).

HOWEVER I was an alectrician LONG before GFCI's were required also! At first they were refuted, and scoffed, but as technology advanced, and they were improved, they gradually became accepted.

Do YOU HATE installing GFCI's? - OOPS NEVER MIND THAT!!!!!

We have enough going as is! LMAO

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by jwelectric:
I found a switched outlet

210.70 Lighting Outlets Required.
(1) Habitable Rooms. At least one wall switch-controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom.

Nice reference, Mike. That shows language illustrating the use of a "switch" as a "controller", in my opinion.

 

[electric_instructor]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

OH SH*T! He just got it goin! LOl

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

A side question has come up about an arc in a switch.

Is it not true that every time a switch controlling a light is opened and closed a spark occurs?

 

[electric_instructor]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

V ery true, BUT the manufacturers, CLAIM that the AFCI can tell the differance, between that kinda arc, or the arc created by a motor, like a vacume cleaner, when plugged, or un-plugged!

 

[electric_instructor]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

as I have said - go back to the origional requirements for the GFCI. I hated them too!

Every time I tried to use a weed eater it would trip! ANY saw or dril would cause a trip!

I forsee, more or less the same progression of the AFCI.
:roll:

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by marc deschenes:
Branch Circuit: The circuit conductors between the final overcurrent device protecting the circuit and the outlet(s).

A receptacle outlet qualifies as an outlet that can be supplied from a branch circuit .

A switch does not qualify. I don't care how many you connect or the way that they are connected , fill a room of wall space with them , they are not by definition outlets or installed at them or on a branch circuit for that matter.

A switch is not a contact device installed at the outlet.
A receptacle is.

If they were we call them switch outles and we would call them that because the would be defined that way.

I am not saying a switch is a receptacle.

I am not saying that a switch is a receptacle outlet.

I am not saying that a switch on the end of a branch circuit is a outlet.

Marc. I really understand that you disagree with me. I get that. But the definitions you are using to define outlet are not the definition of outlet. The definitions of the terms you are using use "outlet" in their definitions. When you come to a single word term "outlet" in the definition of another term (even if that term is a two or more word term like, say, "receptacle outlet"), insert the definition of "Outlet" in for the word "outlet". Insert that definition only inside the other term's definition. The term itself, like, say, "receptacle outlet" is a different thing than "Outlet".

Only the definition of Outlet defines "outlet".

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by electric_instructor:
But lets just look at the INTENT of the CODE.

Intent is not enforceable.

It is only the NEC? that is incorporated into LAW. Not even the Comments in the NEC Handbook are enforceable.

While pulling up ROPs and ROCs leads to an interesting discussion, that is not helpful here in this one, unless you can find documents from the creation cycle for the Article 100 Definition of Outlet.

We are left with the language, to my knowledge, of the definition itself. I'd love more documentation, if anyone has such.

I've tracked the definition of outlet to my earliest NEC, the 1933, and it is word for word unchanged between then and now (except that the list of utlization equipment was replaced with that term, utilization equipment).

 

[electric_instructor]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

The POINT on the system must be defined! I think that we GOT that!

I'll say it again, ANY A/C system requires BOTH an OUTPUT of power, as well as a POINT of return?

Does not ANY USE of A/C power require a supply from , and a return to?

Explain to me where the switch RETURNS ANY power?

Ya! Damm*tt I KNOW, the definition of A/C --- :roll:

 

[marc deschenes]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Al, What you are saying is that a switch is a device installed at an outlet. Replace the word outlet for the definition of outlet , and a switch does not qualify as a device installed at one.
In my opinion

Hey ,I learned something new today

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by allenwayne:
Hey Al what if we smart wire just the bedrooms and they are controlled from the utility room and all power originates from that system,we still have to add afci protection for these areas and the switches either smart or snap wouldn`t they at that point be the point of utilization.

Allen,

Part of how I started down this road that lead to my perspective now, was by illustrating a branch circuit with a switch in a bed that controlled a low voltage decorative luminaire outside the bed. The branch circuit continues from the switch to the luminaire. That BC extension needs AFCI in my opinion. When the switch is a Lutron RadioRA or some other smart switch, and doesn't have hard wiring that is 125V 15 or 20Amp that extends from the switch to the luminaire, I don't think the AFCI requirement applies because of the switch location.

I have argued that the smart switch is utilization equipment in its own right because it performs electronic purpose and utilizes energy to that end.

But that is another thread.

This is about, focused on, whether the current inside a snap switch, used as a controller of a luminaire, leaves the premises wiring and whether that "leaving" is an outlet.

I hear Nays and a few Yeas. Let's talk code.

 

[electric_instructor]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

YEP! when ya talk SMART! You have left the code FAR behind!

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by electric_instructor:
Explain to me where the switch RETURNS ANY power?

Remember, this is about a 125V 15 or 20 A dwelling bed branch circuit.

Quite simply, the current to supply the UE that enters the switch re-enters from the switch and continues down a conductor to the hot side of the UE.

The definition of outlet doesn't concern itself with power, only the current that is taken to supply a UE.