Big oops ... need suggestions

[electric_instructor]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

ONE WAY street! LOL No return path!

KEY is it is in SERIES, and UTILIZES NO power!

POWER merely passes through, it isn't utilized! LOL
:roll:

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by marc deschenes:
What you are saying is that a switch is a device installed at an outlet.

Marc,

NO. I'm not. I'm saying that the definition of Premises Wiring (System) tells me that the current in the switch is not in the wiring system, and I am saying that when the current goes internal to the switch, that that last point on the wiring system is indistinguishable from what is described in the definition of Outlet.

That is, an outlet occurs at a switch used to control another outlet, at the point that current is taken into the internal wiring of the switch.

 

[electric_instructor]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

OOPS, YOU just gave up the ghost!

YOU said the magic word! HOT conductor!

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by electric_instructor:
OOPS, YOU just gave up the ghost!

YOU said the magic word! HOT conductor!

What do you mean?

 

[LarryFine]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by electric_instructor:
Does this include the neutral, and if so, does this neutral pass through the swithbox, on it's way to the luminaire?

If so, could an arc take place at the switch? Therefore, creating a need for the AFCI protection?

For that matter, an arc can even occur within a length of NM, due to either a manufacturing or installation error.

Maybe the code should specify AFCI protection for any cable within any wall, ceiling, or floor space adjacent to bedrooms.

 

[electric_instructor]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

If the switch CONTROLS the HOT conductor alone, then it MUST be a part of the SYSTEM.

To be a TRUE controller, it must control the neutral(Grounded Conductor)as well.
OTHERWISE
The Neutral conductor can still control(carry) OTHER OUTLETS, at the same time.

Otherwise, it would CONTROL, the NEUTRAL as well.
In order to TAKE, or utilize power, it must be able to convert into kenetic, thermal, or light energy, alone, with no other connection.

 

[electric_instructor]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

IT does.

 

[electric_instructor]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

It states that it will protect the branch circuit, not JUST the outlets.

 

[electric_instructor]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Personally I would feed multipul bedrooms on the same circuit, including any outside fixtures.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by electric_instructor:
In order to TAKE, or utilize power, it must be able to convert into kenetic, thermal, or light energy, alone, with no other connection.

Again, the Article 100 Definition of Outlet takes current, not power. The Article 100 Definition of Outlet does not talk about the point utilizing power.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by electric_instructor:
IT does.

IT doesn't.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by electric_instructor:
If the switch CONTROLS the HOT conductor alone, then it MUST be a part of the SYSTEM.

The language in the last sentence of the definition of Premises Wiring (System), IMO, says it is not part of the premises wiring.

 

[electric_instructor]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

OK, I gotcha, I understand what ya mean.

Think ya can convince the majority of the code making panels?

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by al hildenbrand:

Originally posted by electric_instructor:
If the switch CONTROLS the HOT conductor alone, then it MUST be a part of the SYSTEM.

The language in the last sentence of the definition of Premises Wiring (System), IMO, says it is not part of the premises wiring.

I must be precise. The language in the last sentence of the definition of Premises Wiring (System), IMO, says the wiring internal to the switch is not part of the premises wiring.

Edit spelling - Al

[ October 27, 2005, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: al hildenbrand ]

 

[electric_instructor]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Should be interesting! LMAO

 

[electric_instructor]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

I've broken into MANY switches, but have NEVER seen any wiring? BUT good luck! LMAO

 

[marc deschenes]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

I think that perhaps "the" system is not the same as the premises wiring system."The system " is larger than premises wiring and,in my opinion , includes the conductors in the switch. The point of outlet is not the same as a connection point between systems.

The conductors in the switch, in this example , are a part of a system or the system controlling the lighting outlet ,the connection to those conductors in the switch is not the point at which current is taken to supply U.E. That happens at the connection to the U.E.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by electric_instructor:
OK, I gotcha, I understand what ya mean.

Think ya can convince the majority of the code making panels?

Convince them of what? This is already, as I am understanding it, cohesive Code. The language of the 2005 NEC says this now.

If you can understand my perspective, then, as you do your work, you need to incorporate it, lest you run the risk of future litigation and ajudicated claims. The AHJ for the specific job my not understand this, but, he/she can't cite you for a violation for having provided the AFCI protection.

The CMPs will have to deal with proposals to change existing language.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by jwelectric:Is it not true that every time a switch controlling a light is opened and closed a spark occurs?

No. Only an inductive load (which includes some, but not all lighting loads) produces an arc. The arc is a result of the switch's attempt to instantly bring current to zero. The voltage generated in an inductor is proportional to the rate of change in current. Thus the arc.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Big oops ... need suggestions

Originally posted by electric_instructor:
I've broken into MANY switches, but have NEVER seen any wiring? BUT good luck! LMAO

What about a dimmer switch?