Body Protection

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zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
roger said:
So Zog, how about answering Iwire (post # 10) with some substantiation? To say something doesn't meet "so and so" doesn't really have much credibility does it? Can you please provide the wording of what document or standard you say is lacking?

Roger

Regarding post #10. Ok, so it meets HRC 0 requirements. Dosent meet HRC 2 due to the "lab coat design, FR pants or leggings are required and that "lab coat" came with leggings from the manufacturer (Or at least was supposed to). Dosent meet HRC 1 requirements either, the denim jeans no longer meet the FR pants requirement for HRC 1.

Surley dosent meet HRC 3 or 4 but I know Bob (And about everone else) knew that.
 
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iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
zog said:
Surley dosent meet HRC 3 or 4 but I know Bob (And about everone else) knew that.

NO WE DON'T KNOW THAT!

Your assuming all electricians get the same level of training you have.

WE DON'T!

I bet 80 to 90% of the licensed electricians in this country have never been to any training at all regarding PPE.

I have been to some classes but I worked for a large shop that had a Safety Director, very few electrical shops have that or any safety training or any real safety equipment.
 
iwire said:
NO WE DON'T KNOW THAT!

Your assuming all electricians get the same level of training you have.

WE DON'T!

I bet 80 to 90% of the licensed electricians in this country have never been to any training at all regarding PPE.

I have been to some classes but I worked for a large shop that had a Safety Director, very few electrical shops have that or any safety training or any real safety equipment.


In our area (I am in the first county north of NYC) I would venture to say maybe 10-20% get the training, and much less than that actually follow through with the use of the training.

We had a guy severely burned not too long ago...his suit was on the floor less than 10ft from where he was lying when they came to rescue him.

The action that almost cost him his life, but did alter his life...putting the vented covers on the switchgear fronts. He was placing the smaller cover in a larger opening by acident and it fell in and onto the bus.


When I inspect, it is rare for me to see anyone wearing any kind of PPE.

How about visiting jobsites and seeing the temp panels exposed??? When I see that, I refuse to make the inspection unless I see someone fixing it while I am on the site.
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
iwire said:
NO WE DON'T KNOW THAT!

Your assuming all electricians get the same level of training you have.

WE DON'T!

I bet 80 to 90% of the licensed electricians in this country have never been to any training at all regarding PPE.

I have been to some classes but I worked for a large shop that had a Safety Director, very few electrical shops have that or any safety training or any real safety equipment.

Actually, I have never been to an electrical safey training class in my life, I just took it upon my self to open a book and learn about saving my own life.

There are plenty of free videos on line, Square D's "A matter of safety" is a good one that will tell the average "Joe the electrician" all he needs to know about arc flash and the NFPA 70E.

IMO, at this point, everyone in this trade is aware of the NFPA 70E and that there are some arc flash rules that now exist. Anyone not willing to spend 30 minutes of thier own time one evening or on a weekend to learn the basics is lazy.
 

The Iceman

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Ok, I need to be a little more spacific. Sometimes I am required to temp. hookup residential serivices up to 200A, 240v from a lift or ladder. What kind of PPE would you all recommend? I am looking into safety courses also. Thanks for all your help.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
zog said:
IMO, at this point, everyone in this trade is aware of the NFPA 70E and that there are some arc flash rules that now exist.

No, not a chance that 'everyone in this trade is aware of the NFPA 70E'.

You are without a doubt living in a much different world then most of us. You really have no idea whatsoever of how the electrical contractors run that wire the homes and business in this country.

I will likely start a poll about safety to see what kind of response we get, keep in mind my sample group will be those that care enough about the trade to hang out in a code forum so the results will likely be skewed.
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
The Iceman said:
Ok, I need to be a little more spacific. Sometimes I am required to temp. hookup residential serivices up to 200A, 240v from a lift or ladder. What kind of PPE would you all recommend? I am looking into safety courses also. Thanks for all your help.

Why do you need to do this energized? Cant you pull the meter? Do you need to know what PPE is necessary to pul the meter?

Your question is hard to answer beacuse 240V 200A tells us nothing about the factors affecting the intensity of the arc flash if it were to occur. You need to know the available fault current and the clearing time of the protective device. If you can provide some more details perhaps I can offer better advice.

As far as safety training, that I can help you with.
Where do you live?
Are you willing to travel?
Is this just for you or your whole crew/company?
On line or live? (Live is much better for knowledge retention)
NFPA 70E I assume? (Not NESC or CSA)
Have a budget in mind? (You get what you pay for)
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
iwire said:
No, not a chance that 'everyone in this trade is aware of the NFPA 70E'.

Just to be clear, i mean that the average electrician (I would think) is aware that there are some new rules regarding arc flash protection. That dosent mean they know the rules, follow them, or have PPE, just that they are aware that there are some. I would think you would need to be living under a rock for the last 10 years to not at least heard mumblings about arc flash. Look at any trade magazine, IBEW newsletter, etc or see other electrical guys on a jobsite wearing FR clothing, wouldnt that make someone curious?
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
I feel bad that we are kind of threadjacking the OP's thread, but I think this is interesting.

zog said:
Just to be clear, i mean that the average electrician (I would think) is aware that there are some new rules regarding arc flash protection. That dosent mean they know the rules, follow them, or have PPE, just that they are aware that there are some. I would think you would need to be living under a rock for the last 10 years to not at least heard mumblings about arc flash.
What a person suspects exists (i.e. rules regarding PPE) do not protect them from danger. What they do with the information is what saves their skin, literally. I imagine most people that survive burns become very interested in what would have spared them, but it's a little late then, ey? :)

Look at any trade magazine, IBEW newsletter, etc or see other electrical guys on a jobsite wearing FR clothing, wouldnt that make someone curious?

I am probably the most gung-ho electrician on a jobsite, and I'm not wearing FR clothing on the jobsite. The first I have ever seen FR clothing was at a Farm and Ranch store in Cheyenne when I was shopping for winter gear a couple weeks ago - I was interested in buying some, but didn't have $50 extra per shirt or $80 per pair of pants to spend.

I walked away from that saying to myself that I just better not work anything hot, since I couldn't afford the clothes! I'd wear them out before I ever had an occasion to make use of them, I figured.
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
George Stolz said:
What a person suspects exists (i.e. rules regarding PPE) do not protect them from danger. What they do with the information is what saves their skin, literally. I imagine most people that survive burns become very interested in what would have spared them, but it's a little late then, ey? :)

Exactly my point, but if you know the rules exist and are not willing to spend a little bit of your own time to learn more about it you are lazy, come on it is your life we are talking about, stop whining that your employer didnt get you the training buy holding your hand and taking you to a class, show a little inititive.



George Stolz said:
I am probably the most gung-ho electrician on a jobsite, and I'm not wearing FR clothing on the jobsite. The first I have ever seen FR clothing was at a Farm and Ranch store in Cheyenne when I was shopping for winter gear a couple weeks ago - I was interested in buying some, but didn't have $50 extra per shirt or $80 per pair of pants to spend.

See, if you did a little learning on your own you would know it is the employers responsibility to pay for those.

George Stolz said:
I walked away from that saying to myself that I just better not work anything hot, since I couldn't afford the clothes! I'd wear them out before I ever had an occasion to make use of them, I figured.

Thats the idea, the 70E is not all about PPE, the 70E is all about not working hot, woth a few exceptions that nned to be justified. Most electricians shound rarely ever be in a situation where they need the PPE, sadly hot work is done all the time when it dosent need to be, but working hot is easier and encouraged by some employers because it saves them money by putting the workers lives at risk, and the company will do everything it can to encourage thee practices.
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
iwire said:
NO WE DON'T KNOW THAT!

Your assuming all electricians get the same level of training you have.

WE DON'T!

I bet 80 to 90% of the licensed electricians in this country have never been to any training at all regarding PPE.

I have been to some classes but I worked for a large shop that had a Safety Director, very few electrical shops have that or any safety training or any real safety equipment.

ok. another long winded post:
show and tell.......

after spending some time snuggling up to google,
with some thoughts about all this, here's what i found....

to see the exact nature of the problem, go here:
http://www.easypower.com/arc_flash/arc_flash_videos.php

for a quick seat of the pants calculation on the energy released
in an arc fault situation, go here:
http://www.easypower.com/arc_flash/arc_flash_calculator.php

for some levels of protection, with pricing, go here:
http://www.70estore.com/HRC_level_4/

that little stupid arc fault sticker that is supposed to be on everything
including the bathroom door by now gives all the information you need
about how to protect yourself.

there are five factors that affect arc fault:

type of equipment
bolted fault current - depends on service type, and utility supply
working voltage
working distance
time to clear

let's say, for the sake of argument, that you are working in a MCC
pulling out a bucket. a little 30 amp bucket to feed
a 3 hp pump in a food packing plant. it's old gear, and pretty crusty.
you approach it with a left handed look out of your right eye, and
some caution. here is what your risk is....

the upstream supply is 45k bolted fault current
the voltage is 480
distance is 18"
it takes 1 second to clear the fault 'cause the clips
on the back of the bucket wouldn't come loose, and
the insulator fractured, dropping a chunk of metal across
a & b phase.

here's what the calculations say:

Results
Arc Boundary
over 30 feet

Incident Energy
113.3 cal/cm2

Clothing Class
Extreme Danger - Dangerous work hazard; Energized work prohibited

i mention this task for a simple reason... it's commonly done,
and most often without protective equipment. and it's something
where arc fault from a mechanical malfunction is a real possibility.

a 100 calorie suit is sturdy enough to stand up by itself. many of them
have forced ventilation into the hood to make it tolerable even
to wear them. not only have i never worn a 100 calorie suit, i've
never even SEEN one on a jobsite, and i've worked for public utilities
obsessed with safety. why is that?

couple reasons, in my opinion....

a suit like that is about $2,000
getting someone to wear it, short of threatening dismissal, is difficult.

so... what do you do?
shut the switchgear off.
at 113 calories there is no PPE sufficient to protect you.

but this is a common task, and i've seldom seen anyone shut down
a mcc to do it. including me. it's time to change that. last week i
had to snoodle some wires into an old piece of gear at a water bottling
plant. the gear was about 50 years old, a 240 delta MCC.

most of the deadfronts in the wireway were long gone, the bus was
open and exposed, and branch circuits and control wires were everywhere.

i looked at it, and here's what it looked like:

IMG_0022.jpg


notice the exposed vertical and horizontal bus in back, and further along,
the field wiring was tie wrapped to the busbar for support.

here's roughly what the risk looks like:

Results
Arc Boundary
over 19 feet

Incident Energy
51.7 cal/cm2

Clothing Class
Extreme Danger - Dangerous work hazard; Energized work prohibited

what i was wearing amounted to 7 calories of protection. do the math.
it's time to do it differently.


randy
 
zog said:
So do you say anything about it?

You are asking me that question? :wink:

When I go on a jobsite, I am looking for

Safety - I look at the temporary wiring first, as I am walking around and ask for corrections to be worked on as I finish the other portion of my visit.

Safety - I mention about PPE when I see the need and I mention about working live a lot of the time.

I do not think most of the guys want to hear it or even know how to take what I say. 95% of them know they are not suppose to work live, but there are as many answers for this question, as there are people who give the answers.


I do not tolerate open temp panels at all.


It is funny, as I do get calls from contractors after OSHA has visited their sites...
 

Goroon

Member
NFPA 70E-33 ARTICLE 130 - WORKING ON OR NEAR LIVE PARTS
The approach boundries are based on voltages not current.
Unlike the NEC, the NESC contains work rules in addition to installation requirements. Sixty percent of electrocutions occurred to workers less than 35 years of age, Experience and Trainning!

I base my minimum safety apparel on comfort with the system involved. Good or Poor design, Work being preformed, Age and Arc-Flash Potential. Minimum of Safety Glasses and FR 7 clothing at 480v to 50Cal for our Switch gear @ 13.5Kv with 75kAic 6 cycle clearing time.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
zog said:
Regarding post #10. Ok, so it meets HRC 0 requirements. Dosent meet HRC 2 due to the "lab coat design, FR pants or leggings are required and that "lab coat" came with leggings from the manufacturer (Or at least was supposed to). Dosent meet HRC 1 requirements either, the denim jeans no longer meet the FR pants requirement for HRC 1.

Surley dosent meet HRC 3 or 4 but I know Bob (And about everone else) knew that.
There is no way that you can say that the jeans don't meet HRC2. I wear HRC2 jeans every day and without looking at the tag you can't tell them from standard jeans.
 

The Iceman

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Looks like I have alot to learn about PPE. Thanks for all your help. I will post more questions when I learn a little more about this subject.
 

EBFD6

Senior Member
Location
MA
iwire said:
NO WE DON'T KNOW THAT!

Your assuming all electricians get the same level of training you have.

WE DON'T!

I bet 80 to 90% of the licensed electricians in this country have never been to any training at all regarding PPE.

I have been to some classes but I worked for a large shop that had a Safety Director, very few electrical shops have that or any safety training or any real safety equipment.

I have to agree, I read the words HRC 1, HRC 4 , and I have no idea what they mean or what the difference is.

The company I work for issued "hot packs" to the 5 of us that do service work (commercial, industrial), and they have a couple kits that float around to the various construction jobs. These "hot packs" include - a hard hat w/yellow tinted face shield, a pair of FR coveralls, a pair of 500 volt gloves, and some misc. 1000 volt insulated tools (screwdrivers, linesmans, strippers,etc...), to be completely honest I have no idea what HRC these are good for, or when they are supposed to be used.

The company policy basically is, avoid hot work when possible and if you have to work hot you are supposed to wear the gear (which nobody does). I honestly don't think the office even understands NFPA 70E, never mind the guys in the field. The major consensus from field personnel is that the hot work policies for the most part are ridiculous and unnecessary if you are qualified to be doing the work and if you are not qualified you have no business touching anything.

I have worn my hot work gear once and will not wear it again. IMO the little amount of protection it provides is completely negated by the extra hazard it causes through loss of finger dexterity and decreased vision caused by the tinted face shield.

I'm sure I will get "flamed" for this post and that's fine, if others feel they need to wear the gear, that's fine, but as Austin Powers would say "it's just not my bag, baby!"
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
EBFD6 said:
I
I have worn my hot work gear once and will not wear it again. IMO the little amount of protection it provides is completely negated by the extra hazard it causes through loss of finger dexterity and decreased vision caused by the tinted face shield.

You are right, it is all crap, I cant drive as well with a seatbelt on either.
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
EBFD6 said:
I'm sure I will get "flamed" for this post and that's fine, if others feel they need to wear the gear, that's fine, but as Austin Powers would say "it's just not my bag, baby!"

I think your post is a good indicator of the widespread ignorance regarding arc flash hazard in the electrical industry. Not singling you out but I think electricians simply don't know or care about the danger of working live.

I'm not going to flame you because I think everyone can choose to work the way they want with the knowledge that they have. You know the hazards and you have the gear to mitigate the hazards. Yet even with that knowledge you choose to ignore the most effective way to prevent a serious arc flash injury. Your choice. Personally I can't for the life of me understand that, but to each their own.

Me, I have seen enough 480 volt blow ups on YouTube and other pictures of burned flesh not to ever mess with it live. Even large 120/208 systems can provide significant fault potential.
 
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