Bolt on breaker panel boards

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nyerinfl said:
I agree with wireman. A shutdown to change out a bolt on breaker? come on.
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Where I am now, yes, every time.

I am assigned to a factory and they follow the rules and expect me to as well, I can not even open a panel to enter a conduit.

That type of work is done off hours when the panels can be shut down.
 
zog said:
Welcome to the real world? Your world must be under a rock somewhere, you don't have any idea of the hazards you are exposing yourself to do you?
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I agree.

So your changing the bolt on breaker and the duct seal :roll: you used to hold the screw on the screwdriver lets go......
 
iwire said:
Where I am now, yes, every time.

I am assigned to a factory and they follow the rules and expect me to as well, I can not even open a panel to enter a conduit.

That type of work is done off hours when the panels can be shut down.
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I'm all for working and being safe. I understand this line of work is hazardous and can kill and/or maim. But some people sound like they would be afraid to open a wirenut with live voltage on it, and I would find it hard to believe that anyone here has not done live work in this exact type of scenario. I'm all for shutting down power whenever possible, but if it comes down to it, I would change out a breaker no problem.
 
nyerinfl said:
I'm all for shutting down power whenever possible, but if it comes down to it, I would change out a breaker no problem.
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Did you happen to look at the YouTube link that Bob posted? That's what a line to line arc flash at 480 volts looks like. That's what would happen if you accidentally shorted out the busbars in a 480 volt panel. If that doesn't wake up up to the reality of arc flash hazard, then nothing will.
 
nyerinfl said:
I'm all for working and being safe. I understand this line of work is hazardous and can kill and/or maim. But some people sound like they would be afraid to open a wirenut with live voltage on it, and I would find it hard to believe that anyone here has not done live work in this exact type of scenario. I'm all for shutting down power whenever possible, but if it comes down to it, I would change out a breaker no problem.
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I hate to say it but this line of thought is exactly what keeps safety on a back burner. If we ALL don't get together on electrical safety the results will never change. We need to police our work sites.
 
peter d said:
Did you happen to look at the YouTube link that Bob posted? That's what a line to line arc flash at 480 volts looks like. That's what would happen if you accidentally shorted out the busbars in a 480 volt panel. If that doesn't wake up up to the reality of arc flash hazard, then nothing will.
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The OP was for 120/208. On a 480 yes I would take extra precaution.

And yanici, I'm just being realistic, every electrician on this forum has worked on a live circuit at one point in their careers. I'd love to hear from someone who can say they've never worked anything hot ever.

yanici, have you EVER been shocked? If so how did that happen? Did you not take the necessary precautions? Cmon man, it goes with the territory. I mean by your logic no electrician anywhere for any reason should ever work anything hot.
 
nyerinfl said:
The OP was for 120/208. On a 480 yes I would take extra precaution.

And yanici, I'm just being realistic, every electrician on this forum has worked on a live circuit at one point in their careers. I'd love to hear from someone who can say they've never worked anything hot ever.

yanici, have you EVER been shocked? If so how did that happen? Did you not take the necessary precautions? Cmon man, it goes with the territory. I mean by your logic no electrician anywhere for any reason should ever work anything hot.
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Yep, worked live more times than I wanted too. I've replaced 480 volt molded case bolt-in breakers in live panels. But, that's got to change. It's all in the mind set. The industry is changing to a safer one and we have to help it along as much as possible.
 
There were 50% more fatal injuries to finishing contractors than electricians in 2006. There were 300% more fatal injuries to retail workers in 2006 than electricians. We're not doing too bad, but it can always be better.
 
nyerinfl said:
The OP was for 120/208. On a 480 yes I would take extra precaution.
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Its not all about the shock, it is also about the blast.

And if your working on a 208 panel supplied by a transformer right next to it you can have a large blast.

I mean by your logic no electrician anywhere for any reason should ever work anything hot.
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Thats right, unless we are have the right level of protection on and there is a reason to we should not be working hot.

It is all about the mind set and it's time to change it.
 
mdshunk said:
There were 50% more fatal injuries to finishing contractors than electricians in 2006. There were 300% more fatal injuries to retail workers in 2006 than electricians.
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Are those figures adjusted for the numbers of people in each category?
 
Till you've had a close call, and were lucky enough to have nothing happen, lots of electricians will run around fat, dumb, and happy. Working live for someone else's convience is incredibly naive. Short of critical care circuits (with life support equipment attached and in use) in a hospital, or item that demands on continuous circuit operation, there's no reason to work hot.

Till we have a culture of change in our industry, rather than a culture of easily corruptable, nothing will change.

Check out Donnie's accident here. Sometimes we don't get second chances to undo the past, sometimes we get lucky.
 
Since the time of Caesar Augustus there has always been someone who will work cheaper and take more chances with their life. You cannot and will not change that fact. All you can do is look out for yourself and your fellow workers.

Your boss can affect your livelihood.

You must decide if you will let him affect your life.

EDIT: spelling
 
I don't usually get into debates like this on the forum, but I have such a hard time believing that all of you preaching the safety angle never work, have never worked, and will never work again on live electricity. It seems so far fetched I can't even think of ways to make my case anymore because I will be repsonded with some "this is the problem" response coming from the people who do the exact same thing.
 
I'm not saying that I agree with how things are done where I'm from but for the most part working on live equipment with no PPE is standard. I'm not talking about switch gear or large stuff but breaker panels, lighting, switches and some service changes. Unfourtunately in Eastern WA a electrician is a replaceable laborer.
 
The way I see things is you have to weigh the risk, changing a 400 amp breaker in a 2000 amp 480 volt switch gear is something I would want to schedule a shut down to do.

That being said, changing a 20 amp 120 volt breaker in a QOB panel is something I am definitely doing live. It is a small risk and one I am willing to take, to schedule a shut down and inconvenience myself by rearranging my schedule to do 10 minutes of work just doesn't make sense to me.

As far as PPE, it has a place and need, but I will not wear gloves to land a #12 on a 20amp breaker. As far as I am concerned the loss of dexterity is more of a hazard than the protection that they offer, you could lose your grip on the wire and have it hit the buss or something.

I know their are lots on this forum who disagree and that's fine, just throwing my two cents out there.
 
nyerinfl said:
I don't usually get into debates like this on the forum, but I have such a hard time believing that all of you preaching the safety angle never work, have never worked, and will never work again on live electricity.
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Most of us who have participated in these threads have readily admitted to doing live work in the past, myself included. That does not make it right or something that should be repeated. if you haven't picked up on it by now, the industry is changing and working live has become an issue that is being confronted in a major way.


It seems so far fetched I can't even think of ways to make my case anymore because I will be repsonded with some "this is the problem" response coming from the people who do the exact same thing.
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Why do electricians die and get seriously injured on the job? Because they work live. It's really that simple. Have you seen "Donnie's Story" on Youtube? His story had a happy ending, but many do not. Unfortunately his accident happened because he was working live. Accidents from working live are totally avoidable.
 
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"In statistics presented at the 3rd International Conference on Electrical Injury in 1998, the Electric Power Research Institute estimated the direct costs of an electrical fatality at $1.3 million dollars, with total direct and indirect costs reaching between four and ten million dollars. Serious electrical injuries can be even more devastating to the people involved as well as to the bottom line. Floyd estimated the total of direct and indirect costs of a major electrical accident at $17.4 million in 2003 dollars."
 
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