Bonding gas pipe to new residential service
- Thread starter mentor
- Start date
- Status
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: Bonding gas pipe to new residential service
Besides, the 2002 NEC doesn't require bonding unless a circuit is likely to energize the piping system. Then the bonding is sized with 250.122, not 250.66.
Besides, the 2002 NEC doesn't require bonding unless a circuit is likely to energize the piping system. Then the bonding is sized with 250.122, not 250.66.
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: Bonding gas pipe to new residential service
I think it is also important to note that 250.52(B) prohibits gas piping as a grounding electrode. Because, as charlie wrote, the bonding is sized from 250.122 and not 250.66, I believe that, assuming a gas furnace, if the circuit feeding the furnace is properly grounded and bonded the metalic continuity of the piping and furnace takes care of the bonding itself. We have problems with the gas utility flipping out if they see gas piping bonded, so I try to acheive the bonding in that manner
I think it is also important to note that 250.52(B) prohibits gas piping as a grounding electrode. Because, as charlie wrote, the bonding is sized from 250.122 and not 250.66, I believe that, assuming a gas furnace, if the circuit feeding the furnace is properly grounded and bonded the metalic continuity of the piping and furnace takes care of the bonding itself. We have problems with the gas utility flipping out if they see gas piping bonded, so I try to acheive the bonding in that manner
Re: Bonding gas pipe to new residential service
In the 99' code they decided to bond the gas line, then took it out in the context it was and said to could be done via equipment, the furnace circuit.
Supposeedly they got the 99' from the National Fuel Gas code(????), but like all other metal structures in a building it too can become energised.
I dont think selling more wire or clamps had anything to do with the 99' change.
Wm.Colt
In the 99' code they decided to bond the gas line, then took it out in the context it was and said to could be done via equipment, the furnace circuit.
Supposeedly they got the 99' from the National Fuel Gas code(????), but like all other metal structures in a building it too can become energised.
I dont think selling more wire or clamps had anything to do with the 99' change.
Wm.Colt
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: Bonding gas pipe to new residential service
Article 250 was rearranged to make it more user friendly in the 1999 edition. The requirement to bond to the gas piping system was an error that was corrected in the 2002 edition.
To slow down the comments about being user friendly, it is more user friendly for new people. I found it to be a pain since I already knew where 250-96 was located. Bottom line, it is now arranged logically.
Article 250 was rearranged to make it more user friendly in the 1999 edition. The requirement to bond to the gas piping system was an error that was corrected in the 2002 edition.
To slow down the comments about being user friendly, it is more user friendly for new people. I found it to be a pain since I already knew where 250-96 was located. Bottom line, it is now arranged logically.
websparky
Senior Member
- Location
- Cleveland, Ohio
Re: Bonding gas pipe to new residential service
Hi bennie,
I'm curious as to why you would say,
Dave
Hi bennie,
I'm curious as to why you would say,
when bonding of a metal piping system may be a good idea in some cases.
Thanks,
Dave
Re: Bonding gas pipe to new residential service
Bennie
Waste of time or not, it was code and had to be done, if not, there was a Red-Tag waiting for you.
I dont make up the rules but I sure got to follow them, like it or not.
As far as wasting cost of labor Naw charge extra for it, just like anything else.
If what we are doing is not good practice how would you change it to make it better. I hear so many complaints about the code, but never hear any solutions ??
WmColt
Bennie
Waste of time or not, it was code and had to be done, if not, there was a Red-Tag waiting for you.
I dont make up the rules but I sure got to follow them, like it or not.
As far as wasting cost of labor Naw charge extra for it, just like anything else.
If what we are doing is not good practice how would you change it to make it better. I hear so many complaints about the code, but never hear any solutions ??
WmColt
Re: Bonding gas pipe to new residential service
It was not code to bond a pipe that is already bonded. Installing a No.#4 from the panel to the gas pipe, that is bonded by the appliance circuit, is a waste of time and material. Plus it covers up our natural resources until the house is demolished.
The first interpretation of bonding gas pipe was to run the additional conductor.
The gas piping could be used as a ground electrode until 1990. Not too long ago. It was finally eliminated due to the gas pipe not physically being a ground electrode. Gas companies did not want a jumper on their meters.
The wording of the code caused a big expense. When I was an inspector and AHJ, I never required the extra bond on the pipe.
No, as an AHJ, I did not always have to go by the code.
It was not code to bond a pipe that is already bonded. Installing a No.#4 from the panel to the gas pipe, that is bonded by the appliance circuit, is a waste of time and material. Plus it covers up our natural resources until the house is demolished.
The first interpretation of bonding gas pipe was to run the additional conductor.
The gas piping could be used as a ground electrode until 1990. Not too long ago. It was finally eliminated due to the gas pipe not physically being a ground electrode. Gas companies did not want a jumper on their meters.
The wording of the code caused a big expense. When I was an inspector and AHJ, I never required the extra bond on the pipe.
No, as an AHJ, I did not always have to go by the code.
websparky
Senior Member
- Location
- Cleveland, Ohio
Re: Bonding gas pipe to new residential service
bennie,
I couldn't agree with you more about the gas line being used as a grounding electrode. That was/is a bad idea.
However when it comes to bonding, I believe there is a valid reason to bond a gas pipe in a commercial or industrial environment. In the rare occasion that a substantial fault would occur and it came in contact with the pipe, bonding would help clear the fault rather than create a high impedance path to ground.
Thanks,
Dave
bennie,
I couldn't agree with you more about the gas line being used as a grounding electrode. That was/is a bad idea.
However when it comes to bonding, I believe there is a valid reason to bond a gas pipe in a commercial or industrial environment. In the rare occasion that a substantial fault would occur and it came in contact with the pipe, bonding would help clear the fault rather than create a high impedance path to ground.
Thanks,
Dave
Re: Bonding gas pipe to new residential service
Websparky and Bennie
I am not as old as Bennie but I cannot remember ever being able to use the 'Gas Line' as a Grounding electrode, and just to be sure I just called one of our inspectors, and he cant
EVER remember it either.
You guys must have a different code than what we use here.
Although I think it is a good idea to bond any metal in the building that is likely to become energised. A solid connection to a gas line has got to be better than some stray conductor(hot) bouncing on it every time there is some vibration . In fact the 99' code said in the FPN, to bond the cold air return, which may sound like over kill but since we have a grounded system all metal counts.
Wm.Colt
Websparky and Bennie
I am not as old as Bennie but I cannot remember ever being able to use the 'Gas Line' as a Grounding electrode, and just to be sure I just called one of our inspectors, and he cant
EVER remember it either.
You guys must have a different code than what we use here.
Although I think it is a good idea to bond any metal in the building that is likely to become energised. A solid connection to a gas line has got to be better than some stray conductor(hot) bouncing on it every time there is some vibration . In fact the 99' code said in the FPN, to bond the cold air return, which may sound like over kill but since we have a grounded system all metal counts.
Wm.Colt
Re: Bonding gas pipe to new residential service
Many homes had gas for lighting and heat before running water and electricity.
When I was a child in the 30's, we had only gas as a utility. The old house did not have power until the 40's. We had a hand dug well for water.
When electricity was installed, the gas pipe was the only available thing for an electrode, plus it was a neutral backup conductor. Most gas companies also owned the power company.
The current flow, in the gas pipe, started to destroy the pipe through electrolysis. The gas company started installing the isolating fitting.
The code changed to reflect this development. The gas pipe was an electrode if the fitting was not in place, and could be used as a ground electrode. This permission was retracted in 1990.
Very few, if any, gas services were used for a ground.
The original requirement was to connect to the street side of the meter. The gas company did not approve of this.
The conditions for using the gas pipe, as an electrode, were such that it was rarely done.
In 1990 the code firmly forbid the use of the gas pipe as a ground.
I have the same code books as anyone else. As a matter of fact, I have a complete set back to 1965, and a 1947, and 1940 edition. I have a 1908 handbook.
Many homes had gas for lighting and heat before running water and electricity.
When I was a child in the 30's, we had only gas as a utility. The old house did not have power until the 40's. We had a hand dug well for water.
When electricity was installed, the gas pipe was the only available thing for an electrode, plus it was a neutral backup conductor. Most gas companies also owned the power company.
The current flow, in the gas pipe, started to destroy the pipe through electrolysis. The gas company started installing the isolating fitting.
The code changed to reflect this development. The gas pipe was an electrode if the fitting was not in place, and could be used as a ground electrode. This permission was retracted in 1990.
Very few, if any, gas services were used for a ground.
The original requirement was to connect to the street side of the meter. The gas company did not approve of this.
The conditions for using the gas pipe, as an electrode, were such that it was rarely done.
In 1990 the code firmly forbid the use of the gas pipe as a ground.
I have the same code books as anyone else. As a matter of fact, I have a complete set back to 1965, and a 1947, and 1940 edition. I have a 1908 handbook.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Bonding gas pipe to new residential service
Very nicely written, very interesting, more of that 'history' stuff would be fun to read Bennie, you could write your own history book!
I also agree with Bennie that it could be a waste of time and money. If gas appliance(s) are in a building, usually there is a circuit with an EGC wired to it, therefore no need to waste time and money bonding it again! If they are not wired, what (how) is 'likely to be energized' actually mean?
Pierre
Very nicely written, very interesting, more of that 'history' stuff would be fun to read Bennie, you could write your own history book!
I also agree with Bennie that it could be a waste of time and money. If gas appliance(s) are in a building, usually there is a circuit with an EGC wired to it, therefore no need to waste time and money bonding it again! If they are not wired, what (how) is 'likely to be energized' actually mean?
Pierre
Re: Bonding gas pipe to new residential service
pierre: The problem is, I have lived a lot of the history
I calculated the cost of installing the separate wire, clamp, mud ring, and plate, cost at least fifty dollars per unit. There was thousands of homes built, here in this area, during the time this stupid procedure was performed.
Who eats the final bill? Who profited by this?
This is the stuff lawyers love, for class action law suits.
[ June 27, 2003, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: bennie ]
pierre: The problem is, I have lived a lot of the history
I calculated the cost of installing the separate wire, clamp, mud ring, and plate, cost at least fifty dollars per unit. There was thousands of homes built, here in this area, during the time this stupid procedure was performed.
Who eats the final bill? Who profited by this?
This is the stuff lawyers love, for class action law suits.
[ June 27, 2003, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: bennie ]
Re: Bonding gas pipe to new residential service
Bennie;
You said, "
Was this a local rule ?
Our inspectors decided after the 99' ruling came out that we would not bond to the gas line because some of the gas meters did not have these teflon seals/washers in the couplings, which defeated the ruling quickly, because if they werent there, then the gas-line became a grounding electrode instead of just being bonded for a stray wire being able to energise it.
But that said, we are now allowed to bond via the furnace feeder, ok what if these seal or (whatever they are called), are missing then the gas line effectively becomes a grounding electrode by proxy.
Wm.Colt
Bennie;
You said, "
What was the code reference for this section, I have code books going to when I was an apprentice in 1967 and I cant find it anywhere, and neither can my local inspector.
Was this a local rule ?
Our inspectors decided after the 99' ruling came out that we would not bond to the gas line because some of the gas meters did not have these teflon seals/washers in the couplings, which defeated the ruling quickly, because if they werent there, then the gas-line became a grounding electrode instead of just being bonded for a stray wire being able to energise it.
But that said, we are now allowed to bond via the furnace feeder, ok what if these seal or (whatever they are called), are missing then the gas line effectively becomes a grounding electrode by proxy.
Wm.Colt
brian john
Senior Member
- Location
- Leesburg, VA
Re: Bonding gas pipe to new residential service
Unless onee works very hard the gas pipe becomes bonded by default and if the seals or insulating pipe is not installed once again the bonded pipe by default becomes an electrode. In a house isolation might work, in commercial installation isolation is almost impossible.
Unless onee works very hard the gas pipe becomes bonded by default and if the seals or insulating pipe is not installed once again the bonded pipe by default becomes an electrode. In a house isolation might work, in commercial installation isolation is almost impossible.
- Status