Bonding/grounding and AFCI breakers

[LarryFine]

Last service call I had for one was solved by swapping the tripping one with another one from the same panel.

 

[ActionDave]

Last service call I had for one was solved by swapping the tripping one with another one from the same panel.

Have you ever had any success solving any other electrical problem using the same method?

 

[LarryFine]

Have you ever had any success solving any other electrical problem using the same method?

Swapping parts alone doesn't always solve issues, but it's a valuable troubleshooting tool.

Had this not worked, I still would have found out whether the problem was the breaker or the load.

In my example above, it worked because the problem happened to be the combination.

 

[ActionDave]

Swapping parts alone doesn't always solve issues, but it's a valuable troubleshooting tool.

Had this not worked, I still would have found out whether the problem was the breaker or the load.

In my example above, it worked because the problem happened to be the combination.

Swapping parts is a valuable troubleshooting tool, but simply moving one breaker to another position in the panel should not be the solution to an electrical problem because that problem should not exist and only exists with AFCI breakers.

 

[ActionDave]

How many AFCi issues to you get per month on clean circuits that you / your company installed?
VS calls do you get like the OP got Phillip got, where he is asked to troubleshoot a presumably newer house?
Not being snarky just genuinely interested.

I mostly do commercial construction so my exposure to AFCIs is limited. In 2010 and 2011 I wired two custom homes and my experience then is what completely soured me on AFCIs.

Prior to that I had troubleshot a lot of AFCI problems and always found a wiring error to be the problem. I kept saying, "All you guys complaining about arc faults need to learn how to wire or troubleshoot better".

The first house had AFCI problems every time the carpenters plugged in their new saw that had a soft start. I posted about it here asking if anyone knew why a power tool with a soft start would trip an AFCI. Sq D Homeline breakers.

Second house was GE breakers and the same thing would happen with certain power tools. Then after the owner's moved in I got some calls because their tv and vacuum would sometimes trip the breaker. Common thread was electronics were involved. I got a hold of someone at GE tech support and he admitted that certain loads caused a false trip and he sent me a box of brand new fresh batch of updated breakers that were better than last years model. I posted about that on here too.

It was then I realized that a lot of complaints about nuisance trips were legitimate and changed my opinion about AFCIs completely. Sometime soon after that Electrical Contractor magazine ran an article where the electrical manufactures admitted that they were using the general public as beta testers for their technology.

 

[tortuga]

Interesting, I am guessing our residential guys install an average of ~50 AFCI's a month, for perhaps the last 20 years.
I'd say the calls we get to the service department about AFCI's are almost never for jobs we did.
And there is probably an average one AFCI service call every two months say ~6 a year.

 

[electrofelon]

I mostly do commercial construction so my exposure to AFCIs is limited. In 2010 and 2011 I wired two custom homes and my experience then is what completely soured me on AFCIs.

Prior to that I had troubleshot a lot of AFCI problems and always found a wiring error to be the problem. I kept saying, "All you guys complaining about arc faults need to learn how to wire or troubleshoot better".

The first house had AFCI problems every time the carpenters plugged in their new saw that had a soft start. I posted about it here asking if anyone knew why a power tool with a soft start would trip an AFCI. Sq D Homeline breakers.

Second house was GE breakers and the same thing would happen with certain power tools. Then after the owner's moved in I got some calls because their tv and vacuum would sometimes trip the breaker. Common thread was electronics were involved. I got a hold of someone at GE tech support and he admitted that certain loads caused a false trip and he sent me a box of brand new fresh batch of updated breakers that were better than last years model. I posted about that on here too.

It was then I realized that a lot of complaints about nuisance trips were legitimate and changed my opinion about AFCIs completely. Sometime soon after that Electrical Contractor magazine ran an article where the electrical manufactures admitted that they were using the general public as beta testers for their technology.

I am furious about the AFCI thing, particularly the part you mention about the manufacturers using the public and EC's as their beta testers. Some people need to go to jail for that - Im dead serious. I have been to jail for much less. I remember when I first started needing to use AFCI's in the early 2000's, and they were awful. Like pretty much any vacuum or sawzall would trip them almost immediately. I remember having to come back at the very end of the job to put the AFCI's in because I didnt want all the trades people to not have power using their tools.

So that said, in the last 5-ish years I have had like literally 2 issues (that I can remember, maybe there is more) with AFCI tripping. One was a neutral in a can light Jbox that got pinched in the cover, and the other was a EGC hitting the neutral in a recep. I have never had an appliance trip them, but I know some people have. Maybe ive just been lucky.

 

[electrofelon]

Interesting, I am guessing our residential guys install an average of ~50 AFCI's a month, for perhaps the last 20 years.
I'd say the calls we get to the service department about AFCI's are almost never for jobs we did.
And there is probably and average one AFCI service call every two months say ~6 a year.

Yeah thats a pretty good sample size. I was going to say that I am a one man show and do about 2/3 commercial these days. What do the AFCI service calls end up being typically?

 

[hillbilly1]

I haven’t had too many problems with afci’s, at least on what I have installed, one was an old Electrolux canister vacuum that would trip certain afci’s, but homeowner did not want to give it up. Replaced the offending circuit with a newer style afci, problem solved. Had another where a cheap tabletop microwave in the dinning room kept tripping. Replaced the microwave, no more problems. My old boss’s house kept randomly tripping about 20 breakers in six panels. I didn’t wire that one, but did wire one of his vacation homes, never had an issue. Eliminated those afci’s at his request. Problem solved.

 

[kwired]

I don't care for idea of swapping components to see if that solves a problem. A professional should be able to pinpoint the issue and know what components are malfunctioning.

Any "professional" that just swaps or replaces things not knowing if it will fix the problem is often looking at potentially having client call back with a problem that is still persisting. Sooner or later you will look like the guy that has no clue and just keeps throwing parts at it until it works right.

These AFCI's are good at making otherwise good professionals attain that kind of label. Meanwhile the handyman that is cheaper replaces the AFCI with a standard breaker and it never trips again - who is the saint in the owners eyes?

 

[electrofelon]

These AFCI's are good at making otherwise good professionals attain that kind of label. Meanwhile the handyman that is cheaper replaces the AFCI with a standard breaker and it never trips again - who is the saint in the owners eyes?

Because of the completely botched and felonious way afcis were introduced,. I think they're effectiveness is permanently doomed (even if we grant that they work now which I'm still not convinced). For example, consider a scenario where there is a damaged wire. Nail, rodent damage etc and an actual arc fault and the breaker trips. Think about it, what is going to happen here? First it will probably be assumed to be a nuisance trip, and besides, really, who is going to go start cutting a zillion holes in a finished house to try and find the problem? Most likely the breaker will get swapped with a regular breaker problem "solved".

 

[kwired]

Because of the completely botched and felonious way afcis were introduced,. I think they're effectiveness is permanently doomed (even if we grant that they work now which I'm still not convinced). For example, consider a scenario where there is a damaged wire. Nail, rodent damage etc and an actual arc fault and the breaker trips. Think about it, what is going to happen here? First it will probably be assumed to be a nuisance trip, and besides, really, who is going to go start cutting a zillion holes in a finished house to try and find the problem? Most likely the breaker will get swapped with a regular breaker problem "solved".

It is difficult to sustain an arc at only 120 volts as well. You generally need to be feeding material into the arc or it will self extinguish, just like you do when welding with an arc welder you either keep feeding wire into the arc to sustain it with a wire welder or keep moving the rod closer as it is consumed with a rod type electrode.

 

[tortuga]

I would say a significant amount of residential new wiring is roped and stapled by untrained unqualified persons.
If Mike took a survey of all practicing field electricians on this forum I bet we would find most do commercial/municipal then industrial /agriculture then utility , residential would be last.
Then if we asked all the contractor business owners on here who their most agreeable easy going customers are?
We would find commercial/municipal are the best then industrial /agriculture residential would be last.

When I go to my local supply house and chat with the guys loading their vans, they typically are all doing commercial one or two doing industrial / municipal / utility line work.
My theory is electricians gravitate to the profitable 'good' clean commercial work, as is natural and naturally others move in to fill the void.

If we go to a big box home improvement store and hang out for a whole weekday in the electrical isle, and chat with the people filling their carts up with romex and staples, probably one to none of them will be trained electricians, probably zero contractor licenses.
40 years ago this was not the case.

Thats just my take on it.

 

[electrofelon]

I would say a significant amount of residential new wiring is roped and stapled by untrained unqualified persons.

I was going to say similar. That is party how I come to my unscientific conclusion that most AFCI issues are wiring problems. Just from what I have seen, and the number of electricians I have met that tie all neutrals together in multi circuit switch box.........sloppy connections, knicked wires......

 

[kwired]

I was going to say similar. That is party how I come to my unscientific conclusion that most AFCI issues are wiring problems. Just from what I have seen, and the number of electricians I have met that tie all neutrals together in multi circuit switch box.........sloppy connections, knicked wires......

I think it sort of comes down to inspections and enforcement as well though.

Those small add a circuit projects in a dwelling may not get permits, or may not even require permits in some cases. Lesser to not qualified persons more likely to do the install.

Go to a place where inspection is more likely - someone licensed will more likely be doing the install, or inspector eventually catches up to unpermitted work and forces corrections to be made.

I see plenty of non qualified installations done in commercial as well. Mostly the add a circuit type of thing and not so much the new building or major addition kind of thing.

 

[tortuga]

Those small add a circuit projects in a dwelling may not get permits

I'd say its waaaay more than commercial by an order of magnitude.
I am talking about permitted new homes, in my state its legal for a 'home owner' to permit and install there own wiring.
Many times the 'owner builder' pulls the permit but others do most of the work.
A significant amount of new homes are built this way.
They are supposed to live in the house for two years before they sell it.
But there is zero enforcement of that.
I have seen this in many states for many years.

Then there is the house flippers, they buy a house therefor are the 'owner' claim they live there do all the work DIY then sell the house.
They do panel swaps, kitchen remodels, install can lighting, swap out appliances etc. etc.
Or they hire cash labor to do it for them.

Then you have the landlords that use their uncle, a property maintenance company, or DIY, to do all their electrical.
Or the best is when they trade the tenant for electrical labor.
the list goes on.

Commercial places here get visits by OSHA and fire marshal inspections, plus they need to pull a permit when a store or occupancy changes.
And are usually way to busy to to their own work.

 

[kwired]

I'd say its waaaay more than commercial by an order of magnitude.
I am talking about permitted new homes, in my state its legal for a 'home owner' to permit and install there own wiring.
Many times the 'owner builder' pulls the permit but others do most of the work.
A significant amount of new homes are built this way.
They are supposed to live in the house for two years before they sell it.
But there is zero enforcement of that.
I have seen this in many states for many years.

Then there is the house flippers, they buy a house therefor are the 'owner' claim they live there do all the work DIY then sell the house.
They do panel swaps, kitchen remodels, install can lighting, swap out appliances etc. etc.
Or they hire cash labor to do it for them.

Then you have the landlords that use their uncle, a property maintenance company, or DIY, to do all their electrical.
Or the best is when they trade the tenant for electrical labor.
the list goes on.

Commercial places here get visits by OSHA and fire marshal inspections, plus they need to pull a permit when a store or occupancy changes.
And are usually way to busy to to their own work.

State electrical AHJ has in more recent years made it so you can only do wiring in your primary residence. Since then no more owners wiring their own new house or an investment property. Or at least not through to the end. Some still try but once inspectors get involved, which POCO's won't energize a new service without a permit and if there is a permit there will be an inspection at some point. I don't know what questions are on the homeowner application for certain, but even if approved inspector is still a field judge of whether it is a primary residence. A new home is not considered a primary residence while still under construction, therefore no owners permits will be issued for them.

I have not really heard of OSHA being in any workplaces around here other than maybe after a fatality in a workplace. State department of Labor yes, but never heard much about electrical issues other than maybe some things that any layperson might question.

If anything insurance companies is what I see requiring things to be done a certain way whether it be electrical or not. Fire Marshal inspections is kind of more about safety for general public that may enter the place and is more building code related things they are looking at and not employee kind of things.

 

[tortuga]

Thats good to here, its defiantly not the case here, home owners are given a permit easy peazy, just need your name on the deed.
A few years ago had a nice customer with a really nice commercial kitchen we did.
He called and offered all the GFCI's we put in back, as he had swapped them out to regular receptacles.
He later got fined something outrageous by OSHA, I cant remember the amount but it was in the thousands,
we had to go put them all back in, fix some other stuff he did and pull another permit of course.

 

[kwired]

Thats good to here, its defiantly not the case here, home owners are given a permit easy peazy, just need your name on the deed.
A few years ago had a nice customer with a really nice commercial kitchen we did.
He called and offered all the GFCI's we put in back, as he had swapped them out to regular receptacles.
He later got fined something outrageous by OSHA, I cant remember the amount but it was in the thousands,
we had to go put them all back in, fix some other stuff he did and pull another permit of course.

It used to be somewhat that way with homeowners permits. Inspectors were getting tired of essentially being a "how to" source and walking these people through the entire project. Correction notice fees apparently wasn't good enough to sway them either, at least until they got to a point they eventually hired someone licensed to finish what they started. I hated stepping in on those and tried to avoid it.

Then the department figured a way to solve this without even changing any the wording in the law - for the new homes anyway. It is not the owner's principal residence unless they are living in it. Some have maybe tried to say they are living in it, but I think they have a list of requirements that have to be met to say you are living in it and is not all that easy to meet in most instances. This leaves the majority of homeowner permits that are granted being for those that are upgrading an existing service in the home they actually live in and is not resulting in all that many actually bein issued AFAIK.