Breaker lockouts

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Cavie

Cavie

Senior Member
Location
SW Florida
There is an on going discussion about lockouts on DW and Disp. Also, A/H and W/H. I for one do not agree with the use of these divices. Disconects should be required. But then, I'm not in charge of such matters. However, unless you are in an industrial plant or some other safty regulated structure with some safty geru looking over your shoulder, have any of you ever accually used a lock out?. I mean, did you install a lock while you were working on the W/H of the Dishwasher?? Do the code gods really think that anyone is going to do it in a residential setting? Why not make it safe, (I think that is the purpose of the NEC) and install disconects where needed for saftey?. My rant for today!
 
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Cavie said:
Why not make it safe, (I think that is the purpose of the NEC) and install disconects where needed for safty?.
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Who determines "where needed" and "safe/safety"?
The AHJ
The CMP
The Manufac./Lobby groups
The EC
?
 
I will say this the way an inspector told me.We did our part by installing them.If they dont use them they cant go after me.Try to wire track homes and win the bid.You win by knowing how to save.
 
You are entitled to your opinion, and I won't say it is wrong. But here is how I see it:

In a residential setting, dishwashers and other stuff doesn't really get serviced that often. I think the trend is more toward if it breaks, replace it. So requiring disconnect seems like overkill since they will rarely get used.

And if someone doesn't use the breaker lockouts, that's their own fault. There is only so much every one can do to protect individuals from their own lack of safety or their own negilance.

I also think that in a residential setting, its pretty unlikely that someone else is going to come along and turn on a breaker while you are working on something. For that reason, I probably wouldn't use a breaker lock either. But if someone did turn on a breaker while I was working on something, I would consider it my own fault, or the fault of the person who turned on the breaker. I wouldn't blame someone else for not installing a disconnect.

And disconnects are not always safer. My disposal has a switch (disconnect) under the cabinet. One day I stuck my hand in the disposal to get something out. The switch was about 6" from my leg, and well within sight. But I didn't see my 3 year old quietly walk up and flip on the switch. (Since then, I close the cabinet door before sticking my hand in the disposal).
But my point is, a turned off breaker would have been much safer in that particular case.

Steve
 
steve066 said:
You are entitled to your opinion, and I won't say it is wrong. But here is how I see it:

In a residential setting, dishwashers and other stuff doesn't really get serviced that often. I think the trend is more toward if it breaks, replace it. So requiring disconnect seems like overkill since they will rarely get used.

And if someone doesn't use the breaker lockouts, that's their own fault. There is only so much every one can do to protect individuals from their own lack of safety or their own negilance.

I also think that in a residential setting, its pretty unlikely that someone else is going to come along and turn on a breaker while you are working on something. For that reason, I probably wouldn't use a breaker lock either. But if someone did turn on a breaker while I was working on something, I would consider it my own fault, or the fault of the person who turned on the breaker. I wouldn't blame someone else for not installing a disconnect.

And disconnects are not always safer. My disposal has a switch (disconnect) under the cabinet. One day I stuck my hand in the disposal to get something out. The switch was about 6" from my leg, and well within sight. But I didn't see my 3 year old quietly walk up and flip on the switch. (Since then, I close the cabinet door before sticking my hand in the disposal).
But my point is, a turned off breaker would have been much safer in that particular case.

Steve
Click to expand...

And a pad locked one even safer.Just be happy you kept your fingers.
 
mpd said:
cavie

I agree with you, installing lockouts in a residential job makes no sense
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You will be glad you did if you end up in court because you didnt.Not saying they will get used but they are the cheap way out.And either you install them or a disconnect.$2 or $50 take your pick.
 
This is a significant change in 05 NEC and it has not received the attention it should the disconnects are required regardless of occupancy type

422.30 General. A means shall be provided to disconnect
each appliance from all ungrounded conductors in accordance
with the following sections of Part III. If an appliance
is supplied by more than one source, the disconnecting
means shall be grouped and identified.
422.31 Disconnection of Permanently Connected Appliances.
(A) Rated at Not Over 300 Volt-Amperes or 1⁄8 Horsepower.
For permanently connected appliances rated at not
over 300 volt-amperes or 1⁄8 hp, the branch-circuit overcurrent
device shall be permitted to serve as the disconnecting
means.
(B) Appliances Rated Over 300 Volt-Amperes or 1⁄8
Horsepower. For permanently connected appliances rated
over 300 volt-amperes or 1⁄8 hp, the branch-circuit switch or
circuit breaker shall be permitted to serve as the disconnecting
means where the switch or circuit breaker is within
sight from the appliance or is capable of being locked in the
open position.

The provision for locking or adding a lock to
the disconnecting means shall be installed on or at the
switch or circuit breaker used as the disconnecting means
and shall remain in place with or without the lock installed.



Note that if breaker locks are intended to satisfy this requiremnt, the means to lock must be in place at all times.
 
jim w

don't get me wrong I have to enforce it, I just cannot see that breaker lock ever getting used in residential
 
The NEC shouldn't contain provisions to protect persons from unsafe work practices. Even if no equipment disconnects or breaker lockouts are provided, there is always a main disconnect that can always be locked out.

So it doesn't matter what provisions are provided to open a circuit to an appliance or equipment when a qualified and trained electrician is servicing the circuit or equipment. The requirements contained in the NEC must obviously be for the user of the equipment and appliances that don't know any better.
 
Bryan
point well taken but,

The proposal that the means to lock the breaker (if it is to serve as a disconnect) is in 422.31, 430.102, and 440.14 (as you are probably aware) , The proposal cited the issue of service people carrying breaker locks for a wide varity of breaker manufactures. If the means to lock a breaker open (when used) is permanently present then the service person would only need to carry afew different sized locks.
 
After 4 or 5 years go by, and a good sized addition has been built, don't be

surprized when you lock out the DW as labeled on the directory,to find out

you really just shut off the security system and the DW is still "HOT".
 
benaround said:
After 4 or 5 years go by, and a good sized addition has been built, don't be

surprized when you lock out the DW as labeled on the directory,to find out

you really just shut off the security system and the DW is still "HOT".
Click to expand...

Never assume anything is off,get out your hot stick.
 
cpal said:
Bryan
point well taken but,

The proposal that the means to lock the breaker (if it is to serve as a disconnect) is in 422.31, 430.102, and 440.14 (as you are probably aware) , The proposal cited the issue of service people carrying breaker locks for a wide varity of breaker manufactures. If the means to lock a breaker open (when used) is permanently present then the service person would only need to carry afew different sized locks.
Click to expand...

Here hard wired d/w or disposal have to have a breaker lock out on the final if there is no disc. for it.I`ve seen this lock out issue flipped back and forth here for along time.Our AHJ made it very simple.A hard wired d/w,disp.,cook top ,wall oven ,or an a/c unit where the disc. falls behind but above the unit and a w/h without a disc. not within sight of the panel will require a lock out since if it is locked out then it is not energized.All this well the service tech will check for power at the unit.The service tech won`t use them ,is a useless conversation.As long as we supply the lock out for the final inspection , we have covered our responsibility as far as the code goes.It is not up to us to provide a uniform lock out system so the service tech won`t have to have several types of locks for the lock outs.That`s a ridiculous theory.A good service electrician has almost anything on his truck to do the job they are sent on.I know one guy , his truck is a disaster area but he has at least 1 of everything ever made.

I really like the c/h lock outs that have to be flipped over so the breaker can be locked out.No actual locking mechinisim,looks like a mini madison strap with bent edges.To lock out the breaker you have to remove the panel cover and remove them after turning the breaker off,reinstall them and reinstall the cover.Our AHJ questioned them but I showed him the package that had the UL approval stamp on it.He shrugged his shoulders and signed the inspection off.
 
allenwayne said:
The service tech won`t use them ,is a useless conversation.As long as we supply the lock out for the final inspection , we have covered our responsibility as far as the code goes.It is not up to us to provide a uniform lock out system so the service tech won`t have to have several types of locks for the lock outs.That`s a ridiculous theory.A good service ---signed the inspection off.
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When I see language I disagree with I submit a proposal or comment



http://submissions.nfpa.org/onlinesub/onsubmain.php
 
You can say that they are ridiculous to install in a residential setting.You can say that they will not ever be used in a residential setting.But our inspectors require them if #1 the D/W or DISP is hard wired.#2 a cook top or wall oven need one.#3 an A/C unit or A/H/U where the pull out has its working space encroached.#4 a W/H is not within sight of the panel and has no disc.

The actual usage of the lock out is a moot subject.We install them and if the service person decides to use them ,its all well and good.As an inspector told me.If they don`t use them it`s on there tab not ours or his so install them and be legally the one that did there part.Bottom line is we install them and pass.Don`t install them and don`t pass.
 
allenwayne said:
But our inspectors require them if #1 the D/W or DISP is hard wired.#2 a cook top or wall oven need one.#3 an A/C unit or A/H/U where the pull out has its working space encroached.#4 a W/H is not within sight of the panel and has no disc.

The actual usage of the lock out is a moot subject.We install them and if the service person decides to use them ,its all well and good.As an inspector told me.If they don`t use them it`s on there tab not ours or his so install them and be legally the one that did there part.Bottom line is we install them and pass.Don`t install them and don`t pass.
Click to expand...

We have the same requirement here and the same philosophy...
 
Bryan i am glad to see that in this state there is some form of uniformity !!!!
I don`t belive that a service tech will ever lock out a breaker but that is not the issue here.We supply the lock out and if they chose not to use it, well it`s on there tab at that point.All our inspectors have this same view point .Supply the lock out and we are covered,just like a intersection signal do they stop or blow through it ???Which ever it`s there choice.Maybe a convoluted analogy but it is what it is.
 
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