Breakers installed at rough

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Re: Breakers installed at rough

Originally posted by charlie b:
I do agree that if you see a "violation in the making," you should write it up. But that is different than saying, "This house is only at the rough in stage, and you aren't allowed to have that part of the project completed yet."
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Agreed
 
Re: Breakers installed at rough

I no longer land the wires onto breakers until I know the circuit is complete.

I was on a job once where we had energized the laundry circuit so the GC could run his compressor. I caught the worker for the GC flipping every breaker in the panel bacause his compressor quit working.

I had guys working in the house a the time. The problem was in the compressor not the outlet. And I decided that from then on, I would prep the wires, cut and stripped, then wirenut them till trim.

The question here appears to be "is it the inspectors job to inforce this?" Probably not, but then he should call osha, because the breakers are not locked and tagged out.
 
Re: Breakers installed at rough

Charlie, if it is not the purview of the NEC, why do you even have an opinion. It is the jurisdiction's right to manage how they inspect. Areas all around the country inspect stages of construction differently. One area conducts single inspections for every trade and charges, while another does an all-in-one rough;
one wants this done, another that. So what!!

Of course it's not in the NEC. The NEC isn't everything that controls wiring, there are other codes, like the old UBC and IRC, that mandate electrical construction, and jurisdictional laws about how a process like inspection is done are more enforceable than any code in the NEC. That is because they are local/state laws that are being followed.


paul :cool:
 
Re: Breakers installed at rough

UPDATE:

Okay, so I go down to the inspectors office. I said, "I understand about the embedded NM in the flex PVC, no problem. But what's up with the breakers? Never gigged me for that before. Can you site a code reference?"

So he says, "Don't need one, It's 'safety policy'. We don't want you to get the building energized, pull the temp pole, and let the other crafts install temp plugs wherever they want. If that was all that was wrong I would have just gave you a phone call, but for the NM. However, since you have already broke out the tabs in the panel cover, than just fix the conductors, this time."
 
Re: Breakers installed at rough

By Michael:
And running it back to the panel isn't practical because it has to be on one of the small appliance circuits.
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Because of 210.11(C)(1) any circuit that supplies a receptacle in a location described in 210.52(B) is a SA circuit and has to follow the rules of 210.52(B) and (C)

And this statement in 210.52(B)(3):
Additional small-appliance branch circuits shall be permitted to supply receptacle outlets in the kitchen and other rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1).
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Clearly allows us to feed the island from the panel.

Ok I'm done taking the thread sideways but I just thought you should know as I just had to convince a inspector of this. :D
 
Re: Breakers installed at rough

Originally posted by hurk27:
And this statement in 210.52(B)(3) Clearly allows us to feed the island from the panel.

Ok I'm done taking the thread sideways but I just thought you should know as I just had to convince a inspector of this. :D
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Thanks Hurk, I knew that... Yup! I did... (Okay, so I sort of mostly knew it.)
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Re: Breakers installed at rough

He has you on the nm in the slab. Easy fix. Replace with uf.

As far as the breakers go, with no power to the house he is being a real kook. He has no code basis for this. I myself would NOT remove the breakers unless the inspector would like to pay for the additional work.
Why he is specifying that specific breakers can be installed further shows his ignorance.

Sounds like you did a thorough rough. Getting as much done makes finish alot easier when it is usually crunch time.

EDIT:
Wow how long was I typing. Your ispectors intentions are good but he still has no basis for his reasoning unless you were actually in the process of getting the power turned on to the house.

[ January 10, 2006, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]
 
Re: Breakers installed at rough

Originally posted by allenwayne:
All to many inspectors think that because they want something that is enough.Take a stand or get walked on over and over.
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And which would be your approach? :p

I know, I know, 2000 homes each year, no time to argue with inspectors...blah blah blah

[ January 10, 2006, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]
 
Re: Breakers installed at rough

OK...you must think long and hard on this one!

{Moderator?s Note: Edited to remove or replace disrespectful, crude, or otherwise inappropriate language.}

[ January 11, 2006, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: charlie b ]
 
Re: Breakers installed at rough

Originally posted by Minuteman:
I called a buddy who also contracts but does WAY more new house than us. He said basically the same thing as you did about the breakers. But what does the NEC say?
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I am assuming from this statement, that the house will be energized prior to the trim.

If this is correct, then I stand with my prior post. If you energize a circuit without covers or devices w/covers, you're violating a lotta codes. You're jeopardizing your crew, and all the other trades, for just the reasons jbwhite brought up. People love to flip breakers, it's more fun than they can resist.

I'm not trying to pick on you, Michael, I'm just stone serious about it. There's no sense taking a chance. :)

FWIW, I know your inspector doesn't work for OSHA, but we're required by our quasi-OHSA inspector to install a solid panel cover to code, and cover any temp GFI's we have in a house on the rough. If cardboard panel covers and coverless receptacles were safe, they wouldn't be against the NEC. ;)
 
Re: Breakers installed at rough

Georege. I can see it now. Won't happen agin

But, this is news to me. I have wired several buildings (Residential & Commercial) and had the service energized after the rough (with all the breakers installed) in this jurisdiction and others.

The inspector said it was a "new safety policy" which I would understand to mean that others have been doing the same thing, until now. (I know, I have been around working both union and non union)

So, I will take my lumps and consider myself blessed that nobody has ever been hurt by my negligence.
 
Re: Breakers installed at rough

We had an inspector reach into a outlet box a few years ago and got zapped. We now make sure there are no exposed live circuits ever. We get our service heated up just after it is set, and this can mean just one wall propped up. But now the only circuits that are connected to breakers are just the sump and bath GFCI's and a hot GFCI under panel or in the area of the panel, in the winter of course the furnace.

The one problem we do have is the dry wallers will remove the panel cover and leave it off which we have warned them many times to put it back on.
 
Re: Breakers installed at rough

Originally posted by hurk27:
The one problem we do have is the dry wallers will remove the panel cover and leave it off which we have warned them many times to put it back on.
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I don't know if this would help y'all or not? We put this note on the panel cover

?Peligro! Vigoriz? circuitos. Reemplace por favor la cubierta de entrepa?o. .
 
Re: Breakers installed at rough

Originally posted by georgestolz:

If you energize a circuit without covers or devices w/covers, you're violating a lotta codes.
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Which codes would those be??
The little I know about LOTO, it only applies when working on the equipment or system. So that might not really apply.
Anything else??

I wholeheartedly agree that common sense tells us not to do it. If you have something I could possibly enforce, I'm all ears. :) :D
 
Re: Breakers installed at rough

Originally posted by sandsnow:
Originally posted by georgestolz:

If you energize a circuit without covers or devices w/covers, you're violating a lotta codes.
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Which codes would those be??
The little I know about LOTO, it only applies when working on the equipment or system. So that might not really apply.
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OSHA standards prohibit employees (any employees) from being exposed to live energized parts.
 
Re: Breakers installed at rough

Around here, we're to install a single breaker that feeds a single (I mean one duplex) receptacle, typically the laundry, temporarily GFCI protected.

That, and the rough-in inspection, then we get POCO clearance to energize. Yes, that can be two separate inspections, and requested that way.
 
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