Brown, orange, yellow, or brown purple yellow?

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
I'm pretty sure that is for 208/120V. What you wrote would have the neutral on what? Blue? Not likely.
No. He's talking about a 240/120 high leg delta in the same plant that uses BOY for 480V delta. The red has six inches of orange tape to mark the high leg rather than use pure orange because that is already used on the 480V wye. The neutral would be white for everything powered off of the 240V system and grey for the 480V.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
No. He's talking about a 240/120 high leg delta in the same plant that uses BOY for 480V delta. The red has six inches of orange tape to mark the high leg rather than use pure orange because that is already used on the 480V wye. The neutral would be white for everything powered off of the 240V system and grey for the 480V.
He said "Black, Red, Blue for 120/240v and RED TAPED 6" ORANGE for high leg." He didn't say the 120/240V was three phase and he addressed the high leg case separately. If what you say is what he meant, then I misunderstood. I've never seen blue wire used in a 240/120 high leg service, though.
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
Black, red, blue 208/120 wye, Black, orange, blue 240/120 delta is typical everywhere I work. Back before the NEC wanted high legs orange it was common to see black, red, blue for both wye and delta 208V, 240V respectively.

I hate color coding anyway so I don't care what people use. It leads to paint by number electricians and handymen screwing things up. If I were king I would make every conductor black except for equipment grounds, they could be green or bare, but I would ban green wires anywhere metal conduit is used.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
I hate color coding anyway so I don't care what people use. It leads to paint by number electricians and handymen screwing things up. If I were king I would make every conductor black except for equipment grounds, they could be green or bare, but I would ban green wires anywhere metal conduit is used.
I once had to design a PV system for an automotive body shop I had never visited and it was ~1000 miles away. The service conductors were red black blue, but the breakers in the MDP were all on two of the three phases. Our guy who did the site survey had taken pictures but had not measured the voltages. I called the shop to see if I could get one of their mechanics to do the measurements, but they were all afraid of electricity.

It turned out that at some point the service had been changed from 208/120V to 240/120V high leg but the service conductors had not been changed or even taped to show the change.
 

Birken Vogt

Senior Member
Location
Grass Valley, Ca
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet. If I come on a job where I think it needs orange on a high leg and it is already coded (usually red) I will just add a simple wrap of orange on/near the red. It is still the red phase. It just has an orange marking added to it. I think this complies. There is no code that says a wire can have only one color code. In more complicated equipment, wires of one color with a tracer of another are common.
 

tortuga

Code Historian
Location
Oregon
Occupation
Electrical Design
There is no code that says a wire can have only one color code.
This is correct.
If I come on a job where I think it needs orange on a high leg and it is already coded (usually red) I will just add a simple wrap of orange on/near the red. It is still the red phase. It just has an orange marking added to it. I think this complies.
If you have more than one nominal voltage system you simply can't rely on tape and/or even sharpie.
You need to make professional labels and post what the color code (or means of identification) is:
in a manner that is readily available
or shall be permanently posted at each branch-circuit panelboard or similar branch-circuit distribution equipment.
The label shall be of sufficient durability to withstand the environment involved and shall not be handwritten.

So if you have 480 hi leg delta and 480Y/277 in the same building they all need to be distinguishable.
 
I once had to design a PV system for an automotive body shop I had never visited and it was ~1000 miles away. The service conductors were red black blue, but the breakers in the MDP were all on two of the three phases. Our guy who did the site survey had taken pictures but had not measured the voltages. I called the shop to see if I could get one of their mechanics to do the measurements, but they were all afraid of electricity.

It turned out that at some point the service had been changed from 208/120V to 240/120V high leg but the service conductors had not been changed or even taped to show the change.
I once was on a job in one half of a two tenant/occupancy building , and the guy in the other half was feeding a load center with a 480 feed. Talk about dangerous: not only using 240v equipment on 480 but the potential for someone making an assumption that it's 208 or 240 😯. I mean I'm one of those who say always measure don't assume, but I often battle with my logical brain and sometimes assume no one would be that dumb (the converse/inverse of dunning kruger?).
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Thats interesting I think of it as unique sets not unique individual colors. If you just go by individual colors you run out of colors really quick.

There is a few industrial sites here like that where the voltage is tagged or marked on enclosures, color is only used to indicate phase.
Think about it what are you going to do if you have a long lineup of system voltages like
120/240 (single phase),
240/120,
240Y/139,
208Y/120,
416Y/240,
480Y/277,
600Y/347
and 4160Y/2400.
I have even worked on a building with a 50hz buss for some German equipment.
At same time how often do you have that many systems that would have branches throughout the facility?

You maybe have 480/277 and 208/120 that are everywhere and the other systems are limited to specific equipment or areas. The 4160/2400 would be easily differentiated by the use of medium voltage cable/conductors and probably even termination methods is more unique from the other low voltages.
 
At same time how often do you have that many systems that would have branches throughout the facility?

You maybe have 480/277 and 208/120 that are everywhere and the other systems are limited to specific equipment or areas. The 4160/2400 would be easily differentiated by the use of medium voltage cable/conductors and probably even termination methods is more unique from the other low voltages.
Most systems I have had in a building was a 277/480 and 120/240 three phase services, and a 120/240 single phase SDS
 

tortuga

Code Historian
Location
Oregon
Occupation
Electrical Design
At same time how often do you have that many systems that would have branches throughout the facility?

You maybe have 480/277 and 208/120 that are everywhere and the other systems are limited to specific equipment or areas. The 4160/2400 would be easily differentiated by the use of medium voltage cable/conductors and probably even termination methods is more unique from the other low voltages.
I was trying to make the point that associating one single color like orange with a particular system makes no sense to me.
Its the set of colors that makes a system unique.
If each color is reserved for a particular system all you'd need is a facility with 3 systems to run out of colors.
But yeah your right most of us don't work at an airport.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
I was trying to make the point that associating one single color like orange with a particular system makes no sense to me.
Its the set of colors that makes a system unique.
If each color is reserved for a particular system all you'd need is a facility with 3 systems to run out of colors.
But yeah your right most of us don't work at an airport.
I recently saw photos of three sets of three phase conductors where all the phases of each set were all one color. I believe that one set was baby blue, one set was yellow, and one set was pink.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
they actually specify colors for split phase?
NEC doesn't specify any identification at all if there is only one voltage system on the premises, other than for grounded and equipment grounding conductors of course.

If there were such requirement even for "split phase" then we likely would be seeing a lot of 12-2 and 14-2 NM cable being sold as black, white, bare as well as red, white bare or at least field markings of every circuit connected to L2.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
It is fascinating some of the rules and laws Texas has (I know what we are talking about here is a city law not a state law). Really has made me come to realize Texas is far from the "free" State talked about and implied from a political discussion angle
ggunn is from Austin area according to profile. I bet there are places away from the larger cities where you can install things anyway you want or maybe even without license/permit/etc that don't even comply with NEC and nobody makes you change it. That however doesn't waive your potential liability should someone be hurt because of your poor installation.
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
ggunn is from Austin area according to profile. I bet there are places away from the larger cities where you can install things anyway you want or maybe even without license/permit/etc that don't even comply with NEC and nobody makes you change it. That however doesn't waive your potential liability should someone be hurt because of your poor installation.
I have a customer that’s building a vacation house on the coast in Texas, and he said there was no inspections.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
It is fascinating some of the rules and laws Texas has (I know what we are talking about here is a city law not a state law). Really has made me come to realize Texas is far from the "free" State talked about and implied from a political discussion angle
That is perilously close to a political comment; I will just say that "freedom" doesn't mean that there are no rules. I will just add that Austin, where I live, is significantly different in many ways from most of the rest of Texas.
 
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