Buck Boost Transformer

topgone

Senior Member
The principal limitation in the NEC is 210.9 / 215.11, which require that "the system supplied has a grounded conductor that is electrically connected to a grounded conductor of the system supplying the autotransformer." With some exceptions that don't apply when boosting 240V to 480V.

So if the OP has a 240V 3P3W ungrounded delta (not too likely), that rules out autotransformers. If it's a 240V 3P3W corner-grounded delta supply, then using two 240V:480V boost transformers for the ungrounded legs would comply with the above sections.

If it's a 240V 3P4W delta with a center-tapped conductor that is grounded, then I'm not clear on whether the above text would allow you to create a 3P4W 480V delta in which one conductor is grounded, but not actually used by the load, or if that would be prohibited.

Cheers, Wayne
It is possible to use buck-boost transformers, 3 X 240/32V connected in wye if the OP really wanted. The output voltage will be 471V (On the high-side, the voltage to neutral will be 272V or a phase voltage of 471V if the input voltage on the low-side is 240V). On the problem with grounding, the wye point of the transformer bank solves that.
The remaining question will be the costs of doing those.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
So it does it actually buck AND boost ? That was what I was expecting. Sort of........
It is just another name for "autotransformer". Add a winding in series with another winding and depending on if it is connected in additive or subtractive manner the voltage across both windings will be more or less than what the input voltage is.
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
It is possible to use buck-boost transformers, 3 X 240/32V connected in wye if the OP really wanted. The output voltage will be 471V (On the high-side, the voltage to neutral will be 272V or a phase voltage of 471V if the input voltage on the low-side is 240V).
No, that doesn't work with a 240V delta source and autotransformers, although it would work with a 416Y/240V wye source.

Cheers, Wayne
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
No, that doesn't work with a 240V delta source and autotransformers, although it would work with a 416Y/240V wye source.

Cheers, Wayne
You could use three buck or boost transformers on each phase, all affecting the same end of each phase winding in rotation. But it can cause ground reference problems.
If you have a corner grounded delta, the result will be a ground-referenced system in which no line conductor is at ground potential. An ungrounded delta would still be a symmetrical ungrounded delta.
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
It is possible to use buck-boost transformers, 3 X 240/32V connected in wye if the OP really wanted. The output voltage will be 471V (On the high-side, the voltage to neutral will be 272V or a phase voltage of 471V if the input voltage on the low-side is 240V). On the problem with grounding, the wye point of the transformer bank solves that.
Let me try again. No, starting with a 240V delta, you can't use 240V/32V transformers as boost transformers to get a 480V delta. [Well, you could, but it would take 14 or 16 of them.] With autotransformers you can't rearrange the voltage vectors from a delta to a wye, as the new voltages you get are already referenced to the existing voltages. You'll need 240V/240V boost transformers to get a 480V delta.

Cheers, Wayne
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
You could use three buck or boost transformers on each phase, all affecting the same end of each phase winding in rotation. But it can cause ground reference problems.
Sure, but you'd need 240V/240V boost transformers, not the 240V/32V transformers referenced in the post I was quoting.

If you have a corner grounded delta, the result will be a ground-referenced system in which no line conductor is at ground potential. An ungrounded delta would still be a symmetrical ungrounded delta.
The NEC does not permit that, as per the sections I posted. It would permit using (2) 240V/240V boost transformers to turn a 240V corner grounded delta into a 480V corner grounded delta.

Cheers, Wayne
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Let me try again. No, starting with a 240V delta, you can't use 240V/32V transformers as boost transformers to get a 480V delta. [Well, you could, but it would take 14 or 16 of them.] With autotransformers you can't rearrange the voltage vectors from a delta to a wye, as the new voltages you get are already referenced to the existing voltages. You'll need 240V/240V boost transformers to get a 480V delta.

Cheers, Wayne
Keep in mind what is typically marketed as buck/boost is nothing more than a 120/240 by 12/24 or 16/32 isolation transformer. It only becomes an auto transformer because the way you connect it and you could connect pretty much any transformer as an autotransformer.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Keep in mind what is typically marketed as buck/boost is nothing more than a 120/240 by 12/24 or 16/32 isolation transformer.
True, and they make good general-purpose power-supply transformers, too.

It only becomes an auto transformer because the way you connect it and you could connect pretty much any transformer as an autotransformer.
On difference is that B-B transformers have primary-level secondary insulation.
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
Keep in mind what is typically marketed as buck/boost is nothing more than a 120/240 by 12/24 or 16/32 isolation transformer. It only becomes an auto transformer because the way you connect it and you could connect pretty much any transformer as an autotransformer.
That's correct. You can't use those as autotransformers to boost 240V to 480V. For that large a boost, you'd need to start with 240V by 240V transformers, then you could boost 240V to 480V using them as autotransformers.

Cheers, Wayne
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
For that large a boost, you'd need to start with 240V by 240V transformers, then you could boost 240V to 480V using them as autotransformers.
Or wire them as isolation units with the primaries in parallel and the secondaries in series.
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
Or wire them as isolation units with the primaries in parallel and the secondaries in series.
That would take 2 such transformers to get 480V 2-wire from 240V 2-wire. While as a boost autotransformer you can get the same maximum current at 480V using one such transformer.

Cheers, Wayne
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
That would take 2 such transformers to get 480V 2-wire from 240V 2-wire. While as a boost autotransformer you can get the same maximum current at 480V using one such transformer.

Cheers, Wayne
That’s why in the states we use regular step up transformers when we do a big jump like that. I would say overseas, the voltages vary so much country to country, and it makes it easier to have the multi tap transformers when equipment is moved. Most of the equipment I’ve hooked up lately is from Italy, and is connected 400 volts.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
That’s why in the states we use regular step up transformers when we do a big jump like that. I would say overseas, the voltages vary so much country to country, and it makes it easier to have the multi tap transformers when equipment is moved. Most of the equipment I’ve hooked up lately is from Italy, and is connected 400 volts.
Much of that equipment probably is fine when supplied anywhere between 380 and 415 I would guess.
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
In the old days I would use (3) 480X240-120/240V single phase transformers connected as autotransformers to feed 600V production equipment being moved from Canada to the US. Somewhere, in the 90s(?), there was an NEC change that stopped this configuration, although it could still be used for 380V equipment that didn't care about frequency.
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
In the old days I would use (3) 480X240-120/240V single phase transformers connected as autotransformers to feed 600V production equipment being moved from Canada to the US. Somewhere, in the 90s(?), there was an NEC change that stopped this configuration, although it could still be used for 380V equipment that didn't care about frequency.
I’ve used a 480 delta to 120/208 transformer on a 240 volt delta service to get the 600 volts. That was about 30 years ago, and as far as I know, they are still using it. Corner grounded the output.
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
In the old days I would use (3) 480X240-120/240V single phase transformers connected as autotransformers to feed 600V production equipment being moved from Canada to the US. Somewhere, in the 90s(?), there was an NEC change that stopped this configuration, although it could still be used for 380V equipment that didn't care about frequency.
Still partially allowed now, via Exception 2 of 215.11 and 210.9:

Exception No. 2: In industrial occupancies, where conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified persons service the installation, autotransformers shall be permitted to supply nominal 600-volt loads from nominal 480-volt systems, and 480-volt loads from nominal 600-volt systems, without the connection to a similar grounded conductor.

Cheers, Wayne
 
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