busting neutrals

[paul]

LOL

I was on a lift in a Comp USA, opened a 4" square that I should not have, it had way to many KOs used I should have known better. But I pull the cover off anyway and out pops a red wire nut and the neutral splice comes apart .... you know the kind of splice that people have added to a few times without doing it right.

Well right away I hear a buzz .... not good ....... look around see smoke rising from a Apple display aisle.

I got the splice back together go down and check out the aisle, I got lucky the smoke came from surge suppressor plug strips and once I replaced those everything fired up.
One of the employees came by and asked if the 'clutch' in my lift was OK because he could smell a clutch burning up front. I said no clutch but that the electric motor was hot.

Sounds like a good anecdotal reason for pretwisting.

 

[glene77is]

iWire,
Right ON!
Just how many ways can you spell "Bad News"?

 

[iwire]

Sounds like a good anecdotal reason for pretwisting.

This was much more then that, in fact it was one of those that looked pretwisted ...... originally, but then some one added another, and then another and then another. :smile:

 

[e57]

Sounds like a good anecdotal reason for pretwisting.

Sounds like a reasoning for chock block euro-style lugs IMO.

 

[paul]

This was much more then that, in fact it was one of those that looked pretwisted ...... originally, but then some one added another, and then another and then another. :smile:

I usually find those hiding under a grey or big blue. I hate pulling wirenuts off the neutrals.

 

[grich]

Makes me think how many times I have done the same and also wondered if they make such a remote control device that could turn a breaker on & off. Thinking maybe a magnetic mount on a panel / panel cover that could manually switch a breaker on & off...

Keep dreaming, right?

Someone may have beat you to it...

Someone dreamt this up to reset a breaker on a radio transmitter. It just doesn't strike me as a real good idea...

 

[220/221]

120 VAC kills more of us then 277 or 480.

I was referring more to the conditions than the voltage. Standing in a house, trobleshooting a switch circuit VS standing outside pulling wires from a metal pole.

In simple resi troubleshooting you are not going to make 30 trips to the panel. You are going to carefully pull out the switches and receps to isolate the problem. Once you find it you are going to kill the power to make it easier to do the repair and reinstall everything you pulled out.

If you open a box and see taped up blue nuts or some other hazzard, you are going to kill power before you pull it apart.

All hot work is not the same so you can't apply the same rules. Tshooting a 3way resi switch is nowhere close to working a hot box above a grid ceiling.

Think about how close you come to death whenever you plug extension cords together. Those blades are within an inch of your hand/fingers and you usually have a tight grip on it. Should you turn off the circuit, plug it in and reenergize? It would be safer but you are not going to do it. You are just going to pay attenton and keep your paws off the blades.

It's not bravado it's common sense. You have a better chance of being killed on the drive home. A LOT of the crap we do is extremely dangerous and a lot of it is just potentially dangerous. We need to know the difference,

 

[steelersman]

I was referring more to the conditions than the voltage. Standing in a house, trobleshooting a switch circuit VS standing outside pulling wires from a metal pole.

In simple resi troubleshooting you are not going to make 30 trips to the panel. You are going to carefully pull out the switches and receps to isolate the problem. Once you find it you are going to kill the power to make it easier to do the repair and reinstall everything you pulled out.

If you open a box and see taped up blue nuts or some other hazzard, you are going to kill power before you pull it apart.

All hot work is not the same so you can't apply the same rules. Tshooting a 3way resi switch is nowhere close to working a hot box above a grid ceiling.

Think about how close you come to death whenever you plug extension cords together. Those blades are within an inch of your hand/fingers and you usually have a tight grip on it. Should you turn off the circuit, plug it in and reenergize? It would be safer but you are not going to do it. You are just going to pay attenton and keep your paws off the blades.

It's not bravado it's common sense. You have a better chance of being killed on the drive home. A LOT of the crap we do is extremely dangerous and a lot of it is just potentially dangerous. We need to know the difference,

well said.

 

[Doug S.]

I was trying to come up with some sort of way to do that as well.

We service some very large retail lots and it can be a 1/2 to 3/4 mile from the poles back to the switch. On that site we usually have more then one of us and we just keep somebody at the electrical room.

WOW, I thought better of you two... ... ... that contraption has been around for longer than I've been alive. In-fact I was once an apprentice myself =)
The apprentice is an amazing device it slices, it dices, and if it's dull simply return it for a new one... ... ...

I have to agree with the OP making a poor choice, and I'll leave it at that, cause I've done it...

The worst magic jumping wire-nut I had was in a church office on a Friday afternoon, the pastor lost his sermon when his computer pooped out. Talk about feeling guilty... The worst part about it was the bosses church... I wonder if I made it into the "new" sermon? :grin:

 

[iwire]

I was referring more to the conditions than the voltage. Standing in a house, trobleshooting a switch circuit VS standing outside pulling wires from a metal pole.

Your in a home, there are no critical loads and the walk to the breaker is short.

Beyond doing the actual troubleshooting the only reason to work it hot is laziness or arrogance.

In simple resi troubleshooting you are not going to make 30 trips to the panel. You are going to carefully pull out the switches and receps to isolate the problem. Once you find it you are going to kill the power to make it easier to do the repair and reinstall everything you pulled out.

Is that not what I said all along?

it is NEVER a good idea to make circuit changes on a live circuit

All hot work is not the same so you can't apply the same rules. Tshooting a 3way resi switch is nowhere close to working a hot box above a grid ceiling.

But there is no reaosn to do either, and either can put you 6' under.

Think about how close you come to death whenever you plug extension cords together. Those blades are within an inch of your hand/fingers and you usually have a tight grip on it. Should you turn off the circuit, plug it in and reenergize?

You show me a trail of death from plugging cords in and you might have a point. I can bring statistics of how many electricians have been killed doing live work.

It's not bravado it's common sense.

Nope, there is no commonsense in working hot when it can easily be avoided. None, Nada, and it is ridiculous to use the word 'common sense' to describe working hot.

You have a better chance of being killed on the drive home.

Without a doubt that is true, but we can not avoid driving to the job, we have to do that, you can avoid working hot.

The fact that 40,000 of us are killed each year in auto accidents is why I wear a seat belt and drive a vehicle with airbags. I can't avoid driving but I can increase my chances of surviving it.

A LOT of the crap we do is extremely dangerous and a lot of it is just potentially dangerous. We need to know the difference,

I agree a lot of things are dangerous, that is not any kind of reason to do more things that are dangerous.

You can be killed working on that 3 way in a home.

Would you have thought that the lack of drinking one more bottle of water would land you in the hospital until it happened to you? Are you now much more cautions about your hydration then you where before?

Accidents do happen, and usually it is something small that is the underlying cause.

I am not saying I would not trouble hoot live and I did not say that. I said making changes to the circuit hot is a bad idea and one that is not necessary particularly in a home.

Wow my fingers are tired. :grin:

 

[M. D.]

For informational purposes

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1756586&blobtype=pdf

Introduction:

The highest proportions of fatal occupational electrocutions have occurred among those
employed in the electrical trades and in the construction and manufacturing industries.

Methods:

Data from 1992 through 1999 were obtained from the Bureau of Labor Statistics Census of
Fatal Occupational Injuries.

Results:
Occupational electrocution deaths occurred almost entirely among males, with the highest
rates among those aged 20?34 and among whites and American Indians. They were highest during
the summer months, in the South, and in establishments employing 10 or fewer workers. The highest
rates occurred in the construction, mining, and agriculture, forestry, and fishing industries and among
trades associated with these industries.

Conclusions:
Electrocution continues to be a significant cause of occupational death. Workers need
to be provided with safety training and employers, particularly smaller employers, persuaded of the
need for safety training.
See end of article for
authors? affiliations
. . . . . .

 

[infinity]

Some of us have been taught that working live is no big deal (remember the old fossil who tested with his fingers). Truth is that doing so 25 years ago was commonplace and expected, but now it no longer should be. OSHA has given workers sufficient support in providing guidelines that prohibit an employer from having employees work on energized circuits. Just last week I was asked to tie in two control wires on a 480 volt energized transfer switch. No big deal, this could have been done rather safely with the aid of a rubber mat or two to cover the live parts. Knowing that I didn't have to do it thanks to OSHA I refused. Now a shutdown will be required (or they'll get someone else to do it live).

Point being when I started in this business almost twenty five years ago you were expected to perform such tasks, now you don't have to.

 

[220/221]

I think we have different definitions of working hot. You say it's OK to pull out devices hot, others will certainly say it's wrong. Technically you probably can't pull a switch out or uncover a box if it's hot.



I don't know what OSHA says, I only know what I have learned through the years and I need to decide for myself if it is safe. I am the one responsible for my actions.

 

[infinity]

I don't know what OSHA says, I only know what I have learned through the years and I need to decide for myself if it is safe. I am the one responsible for my actions.

OSHA says that as the owner of the company you can do what ever you want. You cannot tell an employee to work on something energized over 50 volts unless it meets some highly restrictive parameters regarding a more unsafe condition from de-energization.

 

[Karl H]

I used to not even think twice about working on energized circuits.
It did'nt matter if it were 120 or 480.I used to install breakers
to hardware in live 480 busses at least once a week. I "thought"
I knew what I was doing and how to do it "Safely".These last two years
I have dedicated myself to Electrical study.I've learned more in
these two years than the 25 years I've spent in the field.This forum
has been the main Catalyst and continued motivation to learn all
I can about "What" I work with on a daily basis.25 years ago we
didn't have the Internet or computers (or at least I did'nt)
so all this wealth of electrical knowledge was'nt readily available
with a push of a button as it is today. Studying the NEC is one thing
and very important.You must also undertand electricity and the
extreme dangers that exist when working with it. After watching
a dozen or so Arc Flash videos and what it will do to a human being.
Or learning just how small of current passing through the body
that will kill a person. I will NEVER work "Tools" on energized circuits
again.Except for Metering purposes only and still with extreme caution.

 

[jeremysterling]

I have 20 yrs electrical experience and trained "old-school". These days, I turn circuits off and then work them as if they were hot. I'm not sure why I work them like they're hot. Maybe I'm practicing for working hot in the future, yet more likely, it's because I've been shocked too many times in the past.

My open neutral story: Earlier this year, installed temp guts in a 277/480 panel for lighting in a small retail finish out. Temping just the lighting ckts. Missed a MWBC neutral behind some FCU feeders. Smoked close to half of the ballasts. Oops....:roll:

How does the saying go? After all the smoke blows out...?