Butler Station

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jwelectric

jwelectric

Senior Member
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North Carolina
For the propose of this scenario lets use both 2002 and 2005 NEC. Between the kitchen and the laundry room is a room that is about 9? by 9?, don?t remember the exact measurements. This room has a dual swing door at both ends. On one side of the room is a counter top with a single 15 inch sink in the middle and a dishwasher on one side and an under cabinet refrigerator on the other side. The sink has a disposal. On the other side of the room is a counter top all the way across with a built-in micro wave under the top cabinets. Both sides have overhead cabinets. On the floor plan this room is called ?Butler Station?. It has built in wine racks under the cabinet with the built-in microwave. The floor plan shows two duplex receptacles evenly spaced over the long counter top and one on each side of sink. Should the receptacles comply with 210.52(C) (1) (4) & (5) and what size circuit or circuits should they be?
 
Re: Butler Station

I can't find a kitchen definition in 2002. Doesn't it include permenant cooking equipment. If so the microwave is debateable as that.

If you tried to pass a microwave as meeting the requirements of permenant cooking equipment I think it would fall short.

Of course none of this matters if I'm not remembering the kitchen definition correctly.

What else is in there, a fridge and a basin?

So what if you put a microwave in your garage?

Although I do agree that this is at least very close to a kitchen.
 
Re: Butler Station

Originally posted by physis:
I can't find a kitchen definition in 2002.
Click to expand...
Perhaps because there's not even a "K" word defined in 100? Or in 210? The closest thing we have is 210.8(B) which is titled: Other than dwelling units.

Since this is a dwelling unit, it's in the abyss, AHJ territory. A kitchen is something that looks like a kitchen or similar room. :)
Or am I tragically misguided? Everyone else is referring to a definition with a zeal that should only be displayed by someone who's seen it... :)

Then again, chances are, if they've got a butler they can afford two more SA's for his use! :D
 
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I've read it. I don't know if somebody posted it here or if it's buried in some readily accessible section, but I've read it. I think it said permanent provisions for food preparation. I dunno. It's probably where too many things are in the NEC.
 
Re: Butler Station

Why is a microwave that has a spot dedicated to it any less permanent that an electric stove in a typical location in a typical kitchen? both can be unplugged and moved, but both clearly have dedicated spaces for them. now if it was sitting on a movable island, thats a different story.

if you have a food prep area in your garage that includes a stove and a sink, it might well qualify as a kitchen. why would it not do so?

i think there is a defintion of kitchen added in 2005.
 
Re: Butler Station

I ask the question because I like to use as a test for weather a code is applicable, would it work in reverse. I think in this case you would not convince a soul that a microwave is sufficient to satisfy a requirement for permanent food preparation equipment.

If you're not sure what 5 x 2 is but you know what 10 / 5 is, well.
 
Re: Butler Station

210.8 (B) (2) defines a kitchen for other than a dwelling unit.
edited sorry 2005 code

[ January 09, 2005, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
 
Re: Butler Station

All I have at my desk is the 2005. It does clarify the "other than dwelling unit" kitchen, but it is, by nature of the outline format of the code, limited to "other than dwelling units." And it's only in relation to GFI protection, at that.

It would be nice to see a definition in 2008.

It would also be nice to see a "sub-kitchen" section akin to 210.52(B), which would require 1 dedicated SA BC in the event that an appliance that would constitute a full kitchen is missing, that there would still be provisions for it.

Ya mean?

[ January 09, 2005, 09:09 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
 
Re: Butler Station

This is a floor plan that was designed for educational purposes and is being used at the Community College. It is based on the ?02 NEC. All circuits had an equipment grounding conductor so I won?t repeat it as I outline the circuits.

A 14/3 was drawn to the refrigerator and a 14/2 from there to dishwasher, reference 300.13 (B) grounded conductor shall not depend on device

A 14/2 was drawn to a two gain box beside the sink that also fed the three way switches for overhead lights. The two gain box switched the 700 watt disposal and light over sink, reference 210.23 (A) (2) 50 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating where lighting

A 14/2 was drawn for the 1200 watt microwave, reference 210.23 (A) (1) shall not exceed 80 percent

A 12/2 was drawn to the two receptacles opposite the sink that are not GFCI protected and fed the two on either side of sink which was shown as GFCI protected, reference 210.8 (A) (7) Wet bar sinks

No mention as to why the counter top required a 12/2 conductor. It is obvious the author did not intend for this to be recognized as a kitchen or there would have been two small appliance circuits installed and all the receptacles would have been GFCI protected. The receptacles on the wall opposite were spaced at 36? from end of counter. It was noted in the reference that the sink was a Wet Bar sink.
My mind cannot conceive someone preparing a meal for the preacher and his wife or the in-laws when they come over in a microwave. When I think of a microwave I think of a bag of popcorn and a NASCAR race or the wife will be gone for a couple of days.
 
Re: Butler Station

This is a floor plan that was designed for educational purposes and is being used at the Community College.
Click to expand...
"Used" meaning for educational purposes in a hypothetical sense, or is something being constructed based on these plans?

No mention as to why the counter top required a 12/2 conductor. It is obvious the author did not intend for this to be recognized as a kitchen or there would have been two small appliance circuits installed and all the receptacles would have been GFCI protected.
Click to expand...
If this isn't a house then 210.52 doesn't apply. If it is a house then the designer doesn't know code (shock) and you have to wire it to code using their plan as a guideline.

My mind cannot conceive someone preparing a meal...in a microwave.
Click to expand...
Your wife obviously cooks. :)
 
Re: Butler Station

As an educational tool this case is a good one. It questions the thinking of the designer as well as the installer and inspector. However we all know the AHJ will make the last call. More Clear definition of "kitchen" would help.
 
Re: Butler Station

I'm gonna have to change my position on the microwave because I just noticed it's built in.

It being built in makes it permanent and it can prepare food.
 
Re: Butler Station

I could argue this either way.
1st i will use 210.52b and call it a similar room so there fore its not a kitchen and will back it up with the blueprint where it defines the room as BUTLERS PANTRY.So it can share the SA with kitchen.
2nd it meets the definition of a kitchen.Nothing says cook a full meal or quality of meal.They do sell TV dinners and trays.Some meals can be cooked with the microwave so i think we have a kitchen.If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck is it a duck ?

As to them having a butler don't count on it.I wired one once and it was a dandy with everything.The reasoning behind them is to keep the cooking out of sight as many modern kitchens are open to family room or living room etc..However i think we all see this as a very upscale home and 2 SA circuits is rediculous.Unless your running low on breaker space why do this ?
Personally i think its a kitchen.
 
Re: Butler Station

I opened this to the class for discussion and ask them to look at this from outside the box so to speak. After a short debate the class spokesman presented this as the reasoning of the author.
This house has a kitchen that is clearly designed for cooking meals complete with two double ovens and a huge cook top with a center grill. Any meals would be prepared in the kitchen and not the microwave at the wet bar. The ?Butler Station? is clearly for mixing drinks for guest (and maybe himself and the maid). A 20 amp circuit was installed for the counter top receptacles for the use of blenders, coffee pots or what ever that is needed for a bunch of drunks to make drinks. The floor plan is clearly marked that this is a ?Butler Station?
I gave the class an ?A? for their good work.
 
Re: Butler Station

"In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit......." Sounds like a "similar area" to me. If I were inspecting I'd argue that point. If I were wiring I'd wire it accordingly. Seems kind of hackish to do otherwise.
 
Re: Butler Station

Could also think about this.If the outlets are being used in the butlers pantry then they likely are not being used in the kitchen.A good solution but maybe not nec compliant would be to have 4 SA circuits shareing all 4 with butler pantry and kitchen.People with that size home likely entertain,so i could see 2 coffee pots,blenders,hot plates ,etc going at same time.I think it would be embarrasing to have a breaker trip at a party.Do what it takes to make this work and not just min code.
 
Re: Butler Station

It sounds like your class has come up with a rather solid assesment that I am in complete agreement with. :cool:
 
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