Butler Station

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Re: Butler Station

Sounds like more than a few drinks to me.And a very inconvient way to get a drink.The major problem i see is its name on the print.An old friend once built a 24 x 24 room with intent for this to be his daughters own apartment.The room had full bath,closet,water heater,kitchen area with sink,dw ,frig,,range, and area for table ,tv ,and bed and its own exterior door.This was attached to his house.County turned down his blue print as this would amount to a duplex in a single family resident neighborhood.I repaired his print in about one minute.White out and remove the word KITCHEN and write in WET BAR.Picked up permit in few days.Nothing changed but the name.
 
Re: Butler Station

Scott, I'll put it this way. A room similar to an undefined room is itself undefined. Abyss.

Having a honkin' kitchen (thanks for not making that obvious to the cheap seats, JW) next to a butler pantry that is an incomplete kitchen adds to the idea that this ain't no kitchen.

We need a definition for a kitchen.
 
Re: Butler Station

What do you got Scott?

I think "not kitchen" an SA circuit answers demand.

In a residence I don't think you get to make it a kitchen.

Commercial, I'd say yes.
 
Re: Butler Station

Lot of cabinets and lots of glasses to wash.If my butler was making drinks i think it would be at some kind of a bar not in a back room.Something is not right here.
 
Re: Butler Station

I agree with you George. I was thinking I might be able to convice an AHJ there's no kitchen in any residence.
 
Re: Butler Station

and the kitchen island is really a wet bar in the living room, and i agree with scott. i think the rest of you are pulling on our kleins. :cool: some will go sooooo far to find an argument.

paul
 
Re: Butler Station

I am not saying or even trying to imply that it is a kitchen. What I'm saying is that it is a similar area which falls under the kitchen rules. Since the NEC lists kitchen, dining room, breakfast nook, pantry, and similar areas I think that a "butlers station" that is probably used by the "butler" in conjunction with the kitchen, would certainly fall into the group they list.
 
Re: Butler Station

i agree with you scott, my tone was sarcastic. a food and drink prep area immediately adjacent to the kitchen, but it's not a similar room, go figure. like i said, i think they are pulling on our kleins. :cool:
 
Re: Butler Station

Seems this has drawn a lot of controversy as to whether it is a kitchen or not. This is an easy one to answer; no it is a butler?s station. Whether or not to wire it as a kitchen or not is now the only debate left. To use the ideology that because it has a microwave oven makes it a kitchen would mean that every convenience store in America with a microwave oven is now a commercial kitchen. Every office that has a coffee pot is now a kitchen. How far will we try to take this kitchen issue? A wet bar in the basement next to a pool table with a blender is a kitchen. We all know that we will be serving snacks with those beers, right? This is food preparation and a place where food will be consumed, a dinning room? What do you think of when you think of a kitchen?
The receptacles in the butler?s station were wired with a 20 amp circuit. What else is wrong with the way it was wired?
 
Re: Butler Station

Originally posted by physis:
I agree with you George. I was thinking I might be able to convice an AHJ there's no kitchen in any residence.
Click to expand...
:)

Deep down, in principle regarding interpretation as it stands, I agree with you, Scott. I'm not totally nuts. But some precision in this shotgun code would be nice.

And, realistically, there's no reason to separate SA's from this butler room, or for it to require it's own set. As I literally interpret it, this is another kitchen. Two circuits for a foot and a half of counter is silly, IMO.

[ January 11, 2005, 12:10 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
 
Re: Butler Station

Originally posted by jwelectric:
To use the ideology that because it has a microwave oven makes it a kitchen would mean that every convenience store in America with a microwave oven is now a commercial kitchen.
(Commercial!)
Every office that has a coffee pot is now a kitchen.
(Commercial!)
How far will we try to take this kitchen issue?
Click to expand...
To the steps of the NFPA, by God!!!

Who's with me?!?!!! :D

[ January 11, 2005, 12:14 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
 
Re: Butler Station

What I'm saying is that it is a similar area which falls under the kitchen rules. Since the NEC lists kitchen, dining room, breakfast nook, pantry, and similar areas
Click to expand...
But those areas don't have the same requirements as a kitchen.
 
Re: Butler Station

Originally posted by physis:
What I'm saying is that it is a similar area which falls under the kitchen rules. Since the NEC lists kitchen, dining room, breakfast nook, pantry, and similar areas
Click to expand...
But those areas don't have the same requirements as a kitchen.
Click to expand...
That's the key. That's what makes this a muddy mess. Having a small kitchen butted up against a big one, they're two kitchens and they can't share SA's. Mini-kitchen gets his own set.

Funny thing is, all four of our circuits can share a dining room, hop into a breakfast nook together, but as soon as they are bound for two kitchens they can't share the same space. That just seems illogical to me.

Does anyone see the merit in a kitchen definition that includes a kitchenette definition? Or are we just having fun? :)
 
Re: Butler Station

I'm all for a larger Article 100.

Edit: Maybe the substantiation could be:

"Uh, because half the time we can't figure out what you guys are talking about". :D

Now I'm just being sarcarstic. (halfway)

[ January 11, 2005, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
 
Re: Butler Station

Would definitely be nice to see a clearer definition of kitchen in the 2008 NEC. Seems to me that the primary food prep area/kitchen should be the only one to require 2 SA circuits and that each subsequential food-prep area (wet bar, lounge, butlers station) should only be required to have one SA circut. Seems like this is more an area just to make popcorn and chill some wine, and maybe put together some drinks, any serious cooking would most likely happen in the kitchen.

[Edited because I can't spell worth a tinker's damn.]

[ January 11, 2005, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: bensonelectric ]
 
Re: Butler Station

I agree with the idea (if you were to define a subkitchen) of one SA circuit.
 
Re: Butler Station

Again I am not saying it is a kitchen. I am saying it is a similar location. To me, it can share the kitchen sa circuits with the dining room, breakfast nook, and pantry. No need to wire it as a seperate kitchen becuse quite clearly it is not.
 
Re: Butler Station

After further review I now give the class an A. :D If the minimum of two sa circuits is already run then this would be an addtional one and that would be fine. Great job class. Gold stars for everyone!
 
Re: Butler Station

Another thing. It seems that this thread keeps getting focused on where the cooking is done. I don't think the main objective of having sa circuits is solely because the cooking is done there. There are other issues, such as food serving areas that may have warming appliances in use. For this reason dining rooms and pantries and similar rooms, (BUTLERS STATION :D ) are required to be part of these circuits rather than general purpose circuits that may include many outlets and lighting.
 
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