Butler Station

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Re: Butler Station

i don't have the code book in front of me but , for the small appliance circuits does't it list kitchen, dining room, pantry, or similar areas in a dwelling. i would have to call that a similar area.
 
Re: Butler Station

In four different posts I have pointed out that the receptacles were wired with a twenty amp circuit. This complies with the small appliance requirements. I would never have believed that this would have drawn so much attention as to weather it is a kitchen or not. Go back and read the original post. The questions being asked around this scenario should have been weather the two receptacles under the micro wave need to be two foot from end of counter and four foot on center. Would they all need to be GFCI protected? But instead the debate was weather it is a kitchen or not. Sometimes we loose the truth trying to prove a fact.
 
Re: Butler Station

Originally posted by jwelectric:
But instead the debate was weather it is a kitchen or not. Sometimes we loose the truth trying to prove a fact.
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JW it makes a difference if it is a kitchen or not.

210.52(C) only applies to kitchens and dinning rooms, if this 'butler space' is neither kitchen or dining room rules for spacing are different.

So for us to discuss

The questions being asked around this scenario should have been weather the two receptacles under the micro wave need to be two foot from end of counter and four foot on center.
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We need to decide if it is a kitchen or not. ;)
 
Re: Butler Station

JW, this thread's direction is in no way trying to come down on you or blow the question out of proportion. At some point each of us is going to have to make this determination in the field, and have an explanation the AHJ will buy.

Or it may result in a proposal.

But I don't think anybody's picking on you or your class. Just thought I'd make that clear, 'cause you seem a little ancy about it. :)

Originally posted by electricmanscott:
Another thing. It seems that this thread keeps getting focused on where the cooking is done. I don't think the main objective of having sa circuits is solely because the cooking is done there. There are other issues, such as food serving areas that may have warming appliances in use.
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What appliances/scenarios are you thinking about, specifically?

I was discussing this with my buddy at work today, and we kinda came to the conclusion that the key to a kitchen is the range. Ranges beckon blenders and food processors, crock pots, waffle irons, etc. A microwave is a microwave, there's not much to supplement it with.

Generally, we use little power to make a salad, right? So "food preparation" is an element of a kitchen, but not the end. In 210.8(B), it defines a kitchen as "an area with a sink and permanent facilities for food preparation and cooking." I see a distinction there between preparation and cooking.

Switching to the "dwelling unit" front, would it be fair to state that the following is true:
Sink + Countertops + Range = Kitchen
Sink + Countertops + Fridge + Microwave = Sub-Kitchen
Kitchen = 2 SA's
Subkitchen = 1 SA
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Would it be acceptable to allow the 2 SA's for the main kitchen to supply the sub-kitchen?
 
Re: Butler Station

Originally posted by jwelectric:
The questions being asked around this scenario should have been weather the two receptacles under the micro wave need to be two foot from end of counter and four foot on center.
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Won't the answers to these questions be better answered once we've set a standard for what is or isn't a kitchen? If we decide it is a kitchen, our works already done for us. :)
 
Re: Butler Station

Okay, Bob. Weigh in: Where's your money on the definition of a kitchen?

Edit to add:
That said the counter spacing requirements only apply to kitchens. ;)
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Well, we haven't created sub-kitchens, yet, have we? ;)

[ January 11, 2005, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
 
Re: Butler Station

I don't have a kitchen definition, but I know one when I see one. :D

I only bring it up as the 20 amp requirement applies to kitchens, dining rooms, pantries, etc.

While the counter space requirements only apply to kitchens.

Without an NEC definition and the plans starting butler space IMO it is not a kitchen. ;)

You can also forget about GFCIs for this space. :p

[ January 11, 2005, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: Butler Station

Do you think adding up the elements of a kitchen to arrive at a definition will work, or do you see a better approach?

It's tricky, isn't it? We know one when we see one but what constitutes one? :)
 
Re: Butler Station

I once worked on a rewire of a large mansion that included a kitchen, dining room, and butler's pantry that was larger than most kitchens in America. :cool:
 
Re: Butler Station

Look this is simple as 123 the blueprint says what an area is and we go from there. If it says kitchen and has a bath tub it is a kitchen if it says bedroom and shows exesize room it is a bedroom room if your room say kitchen and it has been aproved as a kitchen and has a pool it still is a kitchen.
 
Re: Butler Station

Now I'm sure I can convince an AHJ there's no kitchen. :D

Edit: that's the second time convince didn't spell itself right.

[ January 11, 2005, 08:05 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
 
Re: Butler Station

Originally posted by luke warmwater:
Bob, I agree.

My maid (remember her) takes issue with the term 'Butler's' Pantry. :D
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The one on the first floor of the main house or the upstairs maid at the guest house? :D

[ January 11, 2005, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: Butler Station

George, you guys are going too fast for me. Bob and I were thinking along the same lines. I was pointing out that everyone keeps saying "where the cooking is done" as if that is the importance of sa circuits. What I was saying is that the sa circuits are just as important in other areas for coffee makers, warming trays, crock pots etc. that stuff might be more used out of the kitchen so it would seem to make perfect sense to extend these circuits to other areas so that Benson and Krause could put on a good meal without burining down the governors Mansion. :D
 
Re: Butler Station

can't build a single family home without a kitchen, part of the habitability requirements. plans do not rule over some issues. i think the sink and counter trigger soacing and gfci issues, even if you call it a closet.

bathrooms in some old houses had doors between the sections, but it was all bathroom, even if the toilet sat in its own "closet". all the receptacles would require gfci protection, and circuit distribution according to nec edition adopted. same with the butler room. it's not a seperate kitchen, but an extension of the kitchen to keep the butler from spoiling the sensitive and sophisticated sensabilities of the people with too much money.

paul :cool:
 
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