Buying home, no ground.

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JohnDS said:
Ok hey guys. Im buying a new home. ... What do you guys think about this? These sellers look pretty shady so i wouldnt put it past them to have their electrician pull something stupid like this. Plus the fact that the seller happens to be a building inspector lol. Any help, thanks.
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Start with the REAL threat of voiding the purchase. The home is not to code and therefore the contract is materially flawed. If you really want the house then stipulate an addition to the contract to have an independent journeyman or master electrician to fix or verify the condition. You are otherwise entitled to the refund of your earnest money. You'll probably need counsel to pursue this if they show any resistance. If they file to enforce the contract then you definitely need counsel AND your counsel MUST counter-file that the contract is void. If you don't counter-file you're almost guaranteed to lose. The judge will be barred from hearing most of your issues unless you counter-file for them to be heard. A dime-store lawyer will try to convince you to save money by not counter-filing, then lose the case, then collect his fee.

If they sign up for the independent electrician then you probably know what to tell him.
 
renosteinke said:
... "Sellers lie, Flippers cheat, Realtors are scum, and HI's are little help."...
Do you notice a pattern here? The ONLY areas of this house with problems were the things that the homeowner had worked on! The problems are all with the improvements.
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A bit extreme in the expression. But certainly there are enough of them that you stand a real chance to deal with the dark side.

Best advice before buying an old house is to visit several that are for sale in the area so you know what they started with.

My favorite is always the newly replaced, newly repainted walls and ceilings. The last basement I saw the guy had ground the walls flat and latex painted. The original walls were cinder-block and leaky. So he effectively made the walls more leaky by grinding down one side. The latex becomes a growth media.
 
By 'fire block' I was referring to bits of 2x4 mounted about 4'ft. off the floor, between each pairof studs. These were NOT put in for hanging the drywall, as they are not placed at the same level (alternate high/low) and drywall is "properly" installed vertically aligned. Yes, I know, now it's common for them to run the rock sideways; we didn't have 12-ft. sheets back in the 50's.

My 'mantra' was intended to be a little 'harsh.' The biggest property scoundrel I ever met was the sweetest little old lady .... some day max Baer and I will have to compare notes about her (but that's another story). I likewise witnessed first-hand how a 'respectable, innocent' young man deliberately -and legally- circumvented the 'full disclosure' laws. I've had folks insist their place was dry in the 'big flood,' when I clearly recall tying my boat to their service mast.

Buying a 'used house' is no different than buying a used car from the corner 'buy here, pay here' lot. EVERYONE is out for themselves, and you are their next victim. Or, so they think.

Just as important is that your expectations must be realistic. KNOW your history. Anything built before 1962 probably does not have a ground wire; before 1955 and it almost certainly did not. Before 1947, and there's a good chance there's no ground rod, either. If you see 3-prong devices, you need to start digging.

The buyer also needs to KNOW the 'rules' of the home insurance biz. Simply put, anything more than 40 years old is a challenge to insure. If you can get insurance, it is the most restricted and most expensive type. Count on having to re-wire, re-plumb, re-roof, and replace the HVAC, just to qualify for decent insurance.
 
renosteinke said:
By 'fire block' I was referring to bits of 2x4 mounted about 4'ft. off the floor, between each pairof studs. These were NOT put in for hanging the drywall, as they are not placed at the same level (alternate high/low) and drywall is "properly" installed vertically aligned. Yes, I know, now it's common for them to run the rock sideways; we didn't have 12-ft. sheets back in the 50's.

My 'mantra' was intended to be a little 'harsh.' The biggest property scoundrel I ever met was the sweetest little old lady .... some day max Baer and I will have to compare notes about her (but that's another story). I likewise witnessed first-hand how a 'respectable, innocent' young man deliberately -and legally- circumvented the 'full disclosure' laws. I've had folks insist their place was dry in the 'big flood,' when I clearly recall tying my boat to their service mast.

Buying a 'used house' is no different than buying a used car from the corner 'buy here, pay here' lot. EVERYONE is out for themselves, and you are their next victim. Or, so they think.

Just as important is that your expectations must be realistic. KNOW your history. Anything built before 1962 probably does not have a ground wire; before 1955 and it almost certainly did not. Before 1947, and there's a good chance there's no ground rod, either. If you see 3-prong devices, you need to start digging.

The buyer also needs to KNOW the 'rules' of the home insurance biz. Simply put, anything more than 40 years old is a challenge to insure. If you can get insurance, it is the most restricted and most expensive type. Count on having to re-wire, re-plumb, re-roof, and replace the HVAC, just to qualify for decent insurance.
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Thanks for that advice, that is definitely helpful and good to know. Just to be clear to the other guy, I never was in contract. I actually let the realtor know that I am no longer interested. Aside from the electrical, the full inspection report came back with a ton of things that made me think twice. I have decided that the last thing I want is to pay top dollar for a "newly renovated" house and have to rewire the house with sheetrock up whether the owner drops the price or not to compensate. Its easier just to find a newer home like you guys recommended.

Question though: How the hell would this guy plan on grounding the outlets if there is no ground? Am I correct in thinking that it needs to be totally rewired since there is no BX?
 
Pretty much.

There were other alternatives once bandied about - such as just running a ground wire to the nearest bit of plumbing - but those are pretty much no longer allowed. The only practical way to get a ground is to re-wire .... and that's harder to do in some houses than in others.

An alternative is to put everything on a GFCI breaker. I say 'breaker' because the older boxes often do not have room for a GFCI device. Those smaller boxes are another thing that complicates the rewire. A GFCI won't give you a ground, but will provide additional safety.

Once you decide to rewire, all bets are off. While the local AHJ will likely allow you to just replace the existing wiring, I read the code differently.

I maintain that a complete re-wire would have to bring it all up to current code - meaning additional circuits, AFCI's, laundry circuit, SABC's, the whole nine yards. The insurance company, in considering which 'form' (or type of policy) to offer you, will want to see things brought up to a fairly recent code cycle. (They'll also want you to get rid of metal plumbing as well, but that's another forum).

Norcal tells us that FPE made GFCI breakers, and I won't dispute him. I'm surprised, but he has made a hobby of collecting this sort of information :) . I'd hate to see the price of one today, though- so a service / panel change is likely in order.
 
renosteinke said:
Norcal tells us that FPE made GFCI breakers, and I won't dispute him. I'm surprised, but he has made a hobby of collecting this sort of information :) . I'd hate to see the price of one today, though- so a service / panel change is likely in order.
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Have a couple I have removed before during service changes.

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Are you sure you're an electrician? If so, that's the understatement of the year. It would mean that any appliance with a grounded metal case would become electrically energized ("hot" on the outside of the case) as soon as it's turned on.

I don't think a proper 3-light tester would be "fooled" by such a trick. But the bigger question is: knowing what you know now, why would you rely on a simple "tester" to determine if the home is wired correctly?


This would only make the box hot in the sense that it would complete a path for the appliance to run. The box would still be at zero volts (or close to it) because the neutral is grounded at the service panel. The "hot voltage" would not be present on the neutral because the appliance would cause a voltage drop of (120V). Remember Ohm's law is the CHANGE in voltage = Current * Impedance. If the "hot" and neutral/or ground were both 120 no electricity would flow. This is how the tester can not know, it is only looking for the "delta V between the Phase prong and the equipment ground prong.
 
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