cabins with multple dwellings

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HowellOregonElectric

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West Plains, MO, USA
We have a customer, with an electrician, that is building three crude cabins on the river - serving them with 200amp DS. Problem is the cabins have three individual "living spaces", that are independant of each other.

My question is this: Does each "living space" have to have its own disconnect, or can he legally wire all three to the one 200 amp disconnect?

Thanks
 
Yes, I believe you will have to supply a disconnect for each cabin.
I believe you will need a 320A service, as I don?t believe you will be able to serve each unit under 229.39 (D). I believe the cabins will be considered single family dwellings?as defined in the NEC>>>>Which instructs you to serve each unit with no less than 100 amps. If the Cabins are defined different, then a 200A Meter Main service panel, mounted on a remote pole will work?each cabin can be served by a 60A disconnect. My assumption is, you will not be able define the cabins per NEC 229.39(D).
 
If the cabins detached and there are only six handles then you would not need a separate disconnect. The six handle rule would be the disconnect. Each cabin would also need ground rods also-- assuming they are fed with a feeder.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
If the cabins detached and there are only six handles then you would not need a separate disconnect. The six handle rule would be the disconnect. Each cabin would also need ground rods also-- assuming they are fed with a feeder.
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I guess it?s not obvious, but I mean the same thing. My assumption is the OP knows about the six handle rule. Personally, i would install a service panel with a main?and say forget the six handle rule:D.
 
@ Dennis, I guess you are right by being more specific, seeing that the OP said this>>>>>
can he legally wire all three to the one 200 amp disconnect?
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With emphasis on “he”.

Howell, are you not doing this install?
 
resistance said:
Yes, I believe you will have to supply a disconnect for each cabin.
I believe you will need a 320A service, as I don?t believe you will be able to serve each unit under 229.39 (D). I believe the cabins will be considered single family dwellings?as defined in the NEC>>>>Which instructs you to serve each unit with no less than 100 amps. If the Cabins are defined different, then a 200A Meter Main service panel, mounted on a remote pole will work?each cabin can be served by a 60A disconnect. My assumption is, you will not be able define the cabins per NEC 229.39(D).
Click to expand...

I disagree - the code does not require you to supply 100A to each dwelling...it requires the disconnecting means to be rated for 100A. When you do a load calc for all 3 cabins it is highly unlikely that the actual load will exceed the 200A supply.
 
resistance said:
Yes, I believe you will have to supply a disconnect for each cabin.
I believe you will need a 320A service, as I don?t believe you will be able to serve each unit under 229.39 (D). I believe the cabins will be considered single family dwellings?as defined in the NEC>>>>Which instructs you to serve each unit with no less than 100 amps. If the Cabins are defined different, then a 200A Meter Main service panel, mounted on a remote pole will work?each cabin can be served by a 60A disconnect. My assumption is, you will not be able define the cabins per NEC 229.39(D).
Click to expand...

"I believe the cabins will be considered single family dwellings"

I'm not so sure about this portion of your statement. Reading the OP, he says each of the cabins will have 3 seperate "living spaces". The answer really lies with some unknowns...
1) Does each "living space" qualify as a dwelling per NEC definition?
2) Are the three living spaces under one roof (I understood the OP as a yes on this one)
3) Are these units more like hotel rooms than actual single family dwellings?
 
dana1028 said:
I disagree - the code does not require you to supply 100A to each dwelling...it requires the disconnecting means to be rated for 100A. When you do a load calc for all 3 cabins it is highly unlikely that the actual load will exceed the 200A supply.
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What’s your point?? It does require you to supply a minimum of 100A to any one family dwelling.The size of the breaker (or selected disconnect ) determines the circuit size. It you want to mince words, then feel free. And how would you know what the demand is on the three structures? Don’t assume anything.
 
Jljohnson said:
"I believe the cabins will be considered single family dwellings"

I'm not so sure about this portion of your statement. Reading the OP, he says each of the cabins will have 3 seperate "living spaces". The answer really lies with some unknowns...
1) Does each "living space" qualify as a dwelling per NEC definition?
2) Are the three living spaces under one roof (I understood the OP as a yes on this one)
3) Are these units more like hotel rooms than actual single family dwellings?
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I agree with the definition. Read what i wrote.

In response to your 1-3:
1. Yes I believe it does qualify as a dwelling, yet the AHJ could classify it otherwise
2. Not fully sure, but the The OP was somewhat lucid.I assume this, because the OP said: Three crude cabins.
3. Hun???? I guess refer to #2
 
dana1028 said:
I disagree - the code does not require you to supply 100A to each dwelling...it requires the disconnecting means to be rated for 100A. When you do a load calc for all 3 cabins it is highly unlikely that the actual load will exceed the 200A supply.
Click to expand...
Also, to imply that I?m saying a single family dwelling is required to use a minimum of 100 amps, to qualify under NEC 225.39(C) is simply non-sense. ;)
 
resistance said:
What?s your point?? It does require you to supply a minimum of 100A to any one family dwelling.The size of the breaker (or selected disconnect ) determines the circuit size. It you want to mince words, then feel free. And how would you know what the demand is on the three structures? Don?t assume anything.
Click to expand...

My point is a 200A main can supply adequate power to 3 cabins with 100A services. And until the OP provides calcs showing these cabins need a full 100A each I am comfortable will my opinion.
 
HowellOregonElectric said:
We have a customer, with an electrician, that is building three crude cabins on the river - serving them with 200amp DS. Problem is the cabins have three individual "living spaces", that are independant of each other.

My question is this: Does each "living space" have to have its own disconnect, or can he legally wire all three to the one 200 amp disconnect?

Thanks
Click to expand...

Could you elaborate in more detail for the permit for "three crude cabins on the river" and the ac source details? tx
 
@Dana,
I think you are missing my code point. I clearly understand your point!!!
Regardless, the cabin’s will need to be defined, and a definition of structure will depend on size, utilities, and etc.. It may turn out that the OP doesn’t have to get a building permit.The electrical portion of it will be raised from the serving utility to the meter—where the inspector may then question the load (or loads) being served.

@ Action,
That could be so, but you like Dana are assuming. Your assumption could violate NEC. My initial statement holds, if the structure is clearly defined as such. Please note that my statement is based on code, with the understanding that the cabin (Hut) is defined as presented from Websters Dictionary.

Like gndrod said, and as I mentioned. We need more information.
 
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Every tenant is required to have access to the breakers, unless there is 24/7 maintenance available. In your example, a single panel mounted to the outside of each cabin, serving all three units, would meet the requirement. Circuits can also serve more than one unit.

Notice that I said "can," as in 'allowed.' I did not say this was wise.
 
HowellOregonElectric said:
We have a customer, with an electrician, that is building three crude cabins on the river - serving them with 200amp DS. Problem is the cabins have three individual "living spaces", that are independant of each other.

My question is this: Does each "living space" have to have its own disconnect, or can he legally wire all three to the one 200 amp disconnect?
Click to expand...

IMO, the OP is not asking about the rating of the main disconnect rather if all three can be served by one disconnect.

If the cabins are attached then there is the 6 switch rule & the single electrode.

However, if there are detached then there is a single disconnect for each and an electrode for each because all three are separate structures.

The rating of the main will depend on the load calculation.
 
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