California Contractors what are you doing to comply

[cowboyjwc]

Cowboy I agree with the savings. The issue is not about saving money. I am a Licensed professional as such I do service work in residential settings. I have to deal with the everyday person who just wants what they like. Thats it!. We as contractors need to be able to please our customers. I don't think that we as contractors should be held to these standards and being a criminal if we violate them. It's not like we are creating a heath and safety hazard! We actually might be creating one. Some people have serious issues with FL and LED. I don't like the light for reading or vision intensive tasks. I think I am getting eye strain since I placed FL in my house.

I'll tell you a little story. For years and years all you had to do for residential was put under the cabinet lights in the kitchen and that would comply, but everyone complained about even having to do that. Of course commercial was much more intense, and many jurisdictions weren't even insuring that we got the minimum standards. So at a California Electrical Inspectors meeting, in front of all my peers, I stood up and let them know that if they couldn't get even the minimums that the state was going to really come down hard on us and we were all going to wish we had just followed the rules. Now I had no idea whether that was going to happen or not. But the next code cycle came out and that's when we got hit hard, and then this one came out and we got hit even harder. Now they are outlawing incandesent bulbs of a certain wattage, and you can bet that within the next 10 years you probably won't be able to even buy a fixture in CA that takes an incandescent bulb.

Don't blame the government for this one either, you can blame the tree huggers and the scaredy cats that don't want more dams or nuclear power. The demand is exceeding the output and it costs money to produce electricity and no one wants to pay the costs. There is always a line between what you want and what you can have. If people won't make a sacrafice sometimes they are forced to make a sacrafice.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Cowboy You are right on so many points here. I would really like to know what was wrong with just a Under Cab FL Today we can put in as much Incandescent as we want as long as we install an equal amount of High Efficacy. How does that work. How does that save. I just had a customer tell me that they will install all the strip lights above the cabinets they need to in order to get the incanescent they want. So they are installing 450 watts INC and 450watts worth of FL in a 5x10' kitchen. How is that saving energy. I prefer not to debate the issue of compliance. What I want is the EC to express how they are dealing with this situation at hand as it is unlikely that we will be able to change it.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Cowboy You are right on so many points here. I would really like to know what was wrong with just a Under Cab FL Today we can put in as much Incandescent as we want as long as we install an equal amount of High Efficacy. How does that work. How does that save. I just had a customer tell me that they will install all the strip lights above the cabinets they need to in order to get the incanescent they want. So they are installing 450 watts INC and 450watts worth of FL in a 5x10' kitchen. How is that saving energy. I prefer not to debate the issue of compliance. What I want is the EC to express how they are dealing with this situation at hand as it is unlikely that we will be able to change it.

The original idea was instead of turning on 450 watts of incandesent lighting to get a drink from the fridge, you would just turn on the under counter lights. You were supposed to have enough light from the high efficacy to do any normal task in the kitchen. What that really meant was that if you had a 4' cabinet, you were supposed to put in a 4' fixture, not the little 2 footer that everyone was installing.

So back to you original question on how does it save? I'm not sure that it does, because the more incandesant you install the more high efficacy you have to install. I believe that it was just a comprimise until the next code cycle comes around. But again, I'm just looking into my crystal ball and don't really have any inside poop.

 

[Fulthrotl]

You would be surprised at how much power has been saved. While the rest of the country is on a steady incline of usage, California leveled off several years ago. So while we may not be using less, even with the influx of people we aren't using any more.

You guys all really need to go to one of the energy seminars that are usually put on for free by the local utility. Talk to your local POCO and see if they can arrange one.

last month was at the commercial lighting show at the LA convention center....
two years ago, the pitch was... "we have new LED lighting becoming available..."
last month, about the only incandescent lamps on display were the ones to show how
good the LED's were in comparison.

cooper has wall packs.. same metrics as a 175 watt MH wall pack.....

it's about 5" square, and 2" thick. draws 24 watts. doesn't need maintenance.

tomorrow i'm replacing under cabinet lights in a pretty expensive condo in
newport beach...... peel and stick elite LED's.

two years ago, i pulled a LEED AP certification.... figured it wouldn't make
any difference, but it was the flavor of kool aid being consumed....

it's a funny thing... nobody wants to commission a LEED building, but when
they find out you have the certification, it opens doors.... california has a
CALCTP program, which gives rebates for installing advanced lighting control
systems, but only if the installing contractor is CALCTP certified..... got the
cert last month.... and the contractors doing that stuff are all the big guns....
but big guns have big overhead.... i don't..... we shall see how that goes...

 

[cowboyjwc]

last month was at the commercial lighting show at the LA convention center....
two years ago, the pitch was... "we have new LED lighting becoming available..."
last month, about the only incandescent lamps on display were the ones to show how
good the LED's were in comparison.

cooper has wall packs.. same metrics as a 175 watt MH wall pack.....

it's about 5" square, and 2" thick. draws 24 watts. doesn't need maintenance.

tomorrow i'm replacing under cabinet lights in a pretty expensive condo in
newport beach...... peel and stick elite LED's.

two years ago, i pulled a LEED AP certification.... figured it wouldn't make
any difference, but it was the flavor of kool aid being consumed....

it's a funny thing... nobody wants to commission a LEED building, but when
they find out you have the certification, it opens doors.... california has a
CALCTP program, which gives rebates for installing advanced lighting control
systems, but only if the installing contractor is CALCTP certified..... got the
cert last month.... and the contractors doing that stuff are all the big guns....
but big guns have big overhead.... i don't..... we shall see how that goes...

Well whether you believe in it or not, at least you are getting on the bandwagon and will be ahead of the curve when these things become the norm.

 

[electricguy61]

As of yet, I've only been required to provide an installation certificate on commercial jobs, but I'm sure that's only temporary.

Cowboy, what are your thoughts on my previous post: that AFCI's won't hold when dimming fluorescent lights, which my high end customers are requiring because they don't like the glare of the light they put out.

Some of my customers are requesting LED'S, which so far haven't had the same problems, but are 2-3 times the cost.

There's also the issue that the fluorescent lamps must be treated as hazardous waste.

Don't you think there might be a little collusion between the code makers, manufacturers and legislators, with little thought to the overall consequences involved?

I'm all for saving energy, but remember as well that much of the "energy crisis" that California faced was manufactured by the energy industry (Enron and others).

 

[cowboyjwc]

As of yet, I've only been required to provide an installation certificate on commercial jobs, but I'm sure that's only temporary.

Cowboy, what are your thoughts on my previous post: that AFCI's won't hold when dimming fluorescent lights, which my high end customers are requiring because they don't like the glare of the light they put out.

Some of my customers are requesting LED'S, which so far haven't had the same problems, but are 2-3 times the cost.

There's also the issue that the fluorescent lamps must be treated as hazardous waste.

Don't you think there might be a little collusion between the code makers, manufacturers and legislators, with little thought to the overall consequences involved?

I'm all for saving energy, but remember as well that much of the "energy crisis" that California faced was manufactured by the energy industry (Enron and others).

Actually the certs aren't temporary. Come the next code cycle you will be sending them to the state like the mechanical guys do now. Again guys that are doing them now will be ahead of the curve when it becomes required.

Don't know about the dimming and the AFCI's, I haven't heard about any issues.

I'm not going to stand here and preach that many of these codes were nor or are not knee jerk reactions to a long known problem. What I am going to preach, as I do on other threads about AFCI's and other issues, is this, these codes are here to stay, you can fight it and gripe about it all you want, but in the end you're going to end up doing it. You could volunteer your time and see if you could get appointed to the California Energy Commission, but I'm guessing that probably won't happen, not necessarly the volunteer part, but the getting appointed part.

 

[electricguy61]

What I meant as being temporary was not being required to file the residential ones as yet. I know the day is coming.

And you're also correct that, as the expression goes, "you can't fight city hall".

Doesn't mean I can't whine and gripe

 

[cowboyjwc]

What I meant as being temporary was not being required to file the residential ones as yet. I know the day is coming.

And you're also correct that, as the expression goes, "you can't fight city hall".

Doesn't mean I can't whine and gripe

Ahh, yes I'm sure that's coming too.

You can fight them, and you might even win, but is the battle going to be worth it?

Well of course you can and I will probably even agree with you. I just can't help you.:happyno:

 

[Sierrasparky]

What I meant as being temporary was not being required to file the residential ones as yet. I know the day is coming.

And you're also correct that, as the expression goes, "you can't fight city hall".

Doesn't mean I can't whine and gripe

The residential form is required at this time for everyone, not just those who desire to!
This form is supposed to be in the file with all the permit and inspection doc's at the office where the permit is filed with.
There is supposed to be no exception about this.

Actually the certs aren't temporary. Come the next code cycle you will be sending them to the state like the mechanical guys do now. Again guys that are doing them now will be ahead of the curve when it becomes required.

Cowboy, about this sending the cert to the state. Is this inlieu of filing a copy with the local permit office or is this in addition to?

 

[electricguy61]

The residential form is required at this time for everyone, not just those who desire to!
This form is supposed to be in the file with all the permit and inspection doc's at the office where the permit is filed with.
There is supposed to be no exception about this.

I work in some pretty tough jurisdictions, and haven't been asked for it on any residential jobs, only commercial.

There's also a law about licensed journeyman on the job, and no one's asked yet for a license (though I comply and send my guys to school).

 

[cowboyjwc]

The residential form is required at this time for everyone, not just those who desire to!
This form is supposed to be in the file with all the permit and inspection doc's at the office where the permit is filed with.
There is supposed to be no exception about this.



Cowboy, about this sending the cert to the state. Is this inlieu of filing a copy with the local permit office or is this in addition to?

You will first send them into the state, the state will verify that the forms are correct, they will then return them to you with a code number on them and you will then submit them to the local permit office.

So not an additional form, just an additional step.

You are also supposed to leave a set with the permit package that you are supposed to give to the building owner. I know that no one is doing that.

 

[Fulthrotl]

The residential form is required at this time for everyone, not just those who desire to!
This form is supposed to be in the file with all the permit and inspection doc's at the office where the permit is filed with.
There is supposed to be no exception about this.

I work in some pretty tough jurisdictions, and haven't been asked for it on any residential jobs, only commercial.

There's also a law about licensed journeyman on the job, and no one's asked yet for a license (though I comply and send my guys to school).

the compliance checkers all got laid off.... how about i show you my license, and you show me yours, and we call it good?

out the door, trying to keep the customer / license ratio at least even.
when you have more government forms than customers, it's a sub optimum experience.

 

[Sierrasparky]

the compliance checkers all got laid off.... how about i show you my license, and you show me yours, and we call it good?

out the door, trying to keep the customer / license ratio at least even.
when you have more government forms than customers, it's a sub optimum experience.

So in the cities in which you perform work for Residential customers they Fired all the inspectors?
Or is that you don't pull permits?
The form I speak of is required to be filled out and signed for the inspection and submitted to the Inspector or the permit clerk.

 

[Strife]

How exactly can I cut costs when a panel costs now over 700 dollars?
Enter Mr HandyMan, who'll do it without a permit (obviously) and gets a panel (breakers included, most of them) for 140 bucks.
The difference? 15 or so AFCI's at 37 or so. Please let me know where can I find AFCI's for 10 bucks, cause definitely I will cut my cost.
And this is just the beginning.
And in my area median prices for houses have dropped to about 100-150K.
1%-0.5% of house value (just for the panel materials) is a tough thing for HO to swallow.
So yes, I am pointing fingers at "big brother" and its cohorts of shameless manufacturers lobbyists.

I was one of the ones that actually said that. My point was if you're bidding the jobs correctly and everyone is doing the same thing and the customer starts to complain about price, don't just point you finger at "big brother" and blame him for all of you woes.

We're cutting wages, we're cutting permit fees, our city is even thinking about eliminating business tax, we don't even penelize contractors for working without a permit any more. The old days are gone, the days of the $150 p/hr service call have passed, everyone just needs to get used to it.

 

[cowboyjwc]

How exactly can I cut costs when a panel costs now over 700 dollars?
Enter Mr HandyMan, who'll do it without a permit (obviously) and gets a panel (breakers included, most of them) for 140 bucks.
The difference? 15 or so AFCI's at 37 or so. Please let me know where can I find AFCI's for 10 bucks, cause definitely I will cut my cost.
And this is just the beginning.
And in my area median prices for houses have dropped to about 100-150K.
1%-0.5% of house value (just for the panel materials) is a tough thing for HO to swallow.
So yes, I am pointing fingers at "big brother" and its cohorts of shameless manufacturers lobbyists.

Hey you're preaching to the chior here. I owe about $500,000 on a house that's worth about $400,000 now and there are a lot of people around here in the same boat. Mr handy man may not get a permit, but someone is, at least here, other wise it's not getting released to the utility co.

Things are tough all over. I didn't think a 4% pay cut would hurt much, but it did. I'm just barely hanging on myself. Hell I can do it myself and I can't afford to upgrade my panel.

 

[Fulthrotl]

Hey you're preaching to the chior here. I owe about $500,000 on a house that's worth about
$400,000 now and there are a lot of people around here in the same boat.

Things are tough all over. I didn't think a 4% pay cut would hurt much, but it did. I'm just barely
hanging on myself. Hell I can do it myself and I can't afford to upgrade my panel.

that sums up a lot of the world...... i spoke with a guy i was working with 5 years ago,
about the time i pulled a C-10 and went solo.... he hasn't worked in over 2 years.
he's got about 8 months till he's eligible for social security.... and he's trying to make it
that far....

just got a notice from the administrators of a pension fund i'm now eligible to draw on.
under federal mandate, when a pension fund only has 80% of the assets it needs to fund
it's obligations, there is a "stall horn in the cockpit" notice that goes out.... this one is at
82%.....

when they reach 65% of funding, the federal government takes over the administration of
the pension..... i wasn't ever expecting to see anything from either that pension, or
social security, but it's disquieting to see them headed toward failure, taking everyone
who has invested in them and is now depending on them with them.

what is really taking a hit however, is people's sense of "entitlement".
that sense that we can continue as we always have, 'cause we are "americans", or
"contractors", or "union members", or "skilled trademen" or "republicans" or "god fearing people"
or "politicians" or "public servants" or whatever title or designation that we choose to hang on ourselves.

buckle up and hang on. 2012, in my opinion, is the year where our egos and expectations get a
clear blast of reality. we are all in this together. after the 1929 crash, things didn't hit rock bottom
until 1932.

i figure the next two years are going to be 1932 all over again, then things will start improving.
but the next two years are going to be rough, worse than anything we've yet experienced.
we face a dilemma of breathtaking scope.... but the chinese character for dilemma is made up
of equal parts danger and opportunity.... those nimble on their feet will do ok, as those nimble
on their feet almost always do ok.

those sitting there complaining that their unfulfilled sense of entitlement is causing them pain,
will most likely end up as a road waffle. in a downturning economy even more than normal,
ego and pride are the kiss of death.

 

[Chamuit]

I was wondering what all you CA contractors are doing to comply with Title 24 energy requirements with regards to remodels.

1) your customer wants to change the location of the exisiting Kitchen light and install a Track. no High efficacy luminairs are purchased.

2) the customer wants to install a new light bar in the bath. Once again no High eficacy lamps here either.

at the same time you are requested to install ceiling fans where there are none.

A permit is required, The inspector will notice the lack of High eficacy lights.
What are you guys doing?

Blank them all off and wait till the inspectors are gone.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Blank them all off and wait till the inspectors are gone.

Obviously you are unaware of the rules. If you blank the outlets off you MUST designate 180 more watts for each blank for non Highefficacy wattage to the formula. This does nothing to help you comply. It does not work anymore to do that. You need to read the form and review the rules.
So I guess you are another contractor that does not follow the law and is screwing it up for those that are trying to comply. :rant:

 

[Sierrasparky]

I met a contractor who will not pull permits for kitchen remodels anymore because his cuustomers will not let him install compliant lighting.

This guy is in Ventura county and he knows that the ispectors will not let him slide.
This is is way of dealing with fileing a paper with a signature under penalty of perjury.