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Can I use flexible metallic conduit in a run of EMT ?

Murphy79

Member
Location
Kansas City , MO
Occupation
Master Electrician/ Elelectrical Contractor/Instructor/ Solar
I need to extend a run of 1 1/2 " EMT for a 460 3 phase circuit for an overhead crane in an industrial setting. Where I need to extend the EMT, there is not enough room to fit a piece of EMT where it is needed. My question is : Can I install a piece of flex in this area between two pieces of 1 1/2 " EMT to make the transition to where I can resume the rest of the run with EMT ? The piece of flex only needs to be about 4 feet long.
Thank You for any help. Steve Wiese.
I agree I do not see a problem with that and to verify that you still have continuity and between the two points I will perform a continuity test. You can attach a conductor to one end of The Wire and another conductor at the opposite end to see if your metallic flexible conduit establishes connection between the two
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
I agree I do not see a problem with that and to verify that you still have continuity and between the two points I will perform a continuity test. You can attach a conductor to one end of The Wire and another conductor at the opposite end to see if your metallic flexible conduit establishes connection between the two
You might want to look at the article sections mentioned in earlier posts, especially 250.118
 

PaulMmn

Senior Member
Location
Union, KY, USA
Occupation
EIT - Engineer in Training, Lafayette College
That makes sense for keeping he ground thru to the pipe however if the equipment grounding conductor is only there to continue the grounding to the rest of the run then what is grounding the flex itself? I assumed the need for an equipment grounding conductor is because the flex isn't a good enough ground so how does running an equipment grounding conductor thru the flex make the flex an adequate ground.
I suspect the reasoning is that although the flex is grounded by its connections to the pipe, the corrugations (I'm imagining the revolutions of BX cable) of the flex aren't good enough as a ground for the entire circuit.
 

Dennis Alwon

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Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
I suspect the reasoning is that although the flex is grounded by its connections to the pipe, the corrugations (I'm imagining the revolutions of BX cable) of the flex aren't good enough as a ground for the entire circuit.
I get that but going back to what we were talking about earlier, if that were the case then how would the flex create a path to ground incase of a short within the flex itself?
 

PaulMmn

Senior Member
Location
Union, KY, USA
Occupation
EIT - Engineer in Training, Lafayette College
I get that but going back to what we were talking about earlier, if that were the case then how would the flex create a path to ground incase of a short within the flex itself?
The short would travel the spiral of the flex until it hit the coupling(s) to the pipe. Same deal with BX or MC... Unless the 'green wire' is uninsulated, and touches the flex in several places. Run a bare ground from coupling to flex to the other coupling?
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
The short would travel the spiral of the flex until it hit the coupling(s) to the pipe. Same deal with BX or MC... Unless the 'green wire' is uninsulated, and touches the flex in several places. Run a bare ground from coupling to flex to the other coupling?
My point is that the NEC is saying that the flex is not sufficient as a ground so they say to add an equipment grounding conductor. How does adding an equipment grounding conductor (Insulated) make the flex capable of carrying the fault if the NEC says it is not a ground.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
How does adding an equipment grounding conductor (Insulated) make the flex capable of carrying the fault if the NEC says it is not a ground.
That isn't what it does. I connects the two conduits together, as if the flex was a gap.

Pretend the flex is non-metallic. Can you see the purpose of the wire EGC then?
 

Dennis Alwon

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Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
That isn't what it does. I connects the two conduits together, as if the flex was a gap.

Pretend the flex is non-metallic. Can you see the purpose of the wire EGC then?
of course, but that doesn't make the cable any more capable of clearing a fault. In bx and mc cables there is a small steel or aluminum wire that touches the entire length of the cable.

Look I get that the flex is conductive and would clear a fault most of the time without an equipment grounding conductor but the NEC is basically saying the flex is not a ground. How does connecting the equipment grounding conductor in a jb or some other area changes the ability of the flex itself to carry a fault.
 

Choice_Gorilla

Senior Member
Location
New England
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Correct me if I’m wrong but I think what @Dennis Alwon is driving at is the ability of the flex to carry fault current back to a wire type EGC (or pipe) to actually carry fault current back to the source. For example if there’s a 500’ run of 2” FMC, the NEC doesn’t permit it to be used as an EGC. However, if there’s a fault halfway through the run to the raceway then the FMC still needs to act like an EGC in a sense to carry fault current to the appropriate EGC. Comparing it to a piece of PVC in the middle of the run is a different animal, PVC isn’t conductive and won’t carry any current anywhere.
 

Choice_Gorilla

Senior Member
Location
New England
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Went back and read 250.118 and FMC can’t be used as an EGC in lengths over 6’ anyway. But I guess the question still stands, what happens between 1 1/4” and 1 1/2” that stops FMC from being a suitable EGC, even though it still might need to carry fault current?
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
But I guess the question still stands, what happens between 1 1/4” and 1 1/2” that stops FMC from being a suitable EGC, even though it still might need to carry fault current?
Probably because the larger sizes (usually) house larger conductors of greater currents.
 

Choice_Gorilla

Senior Member
Location
New England
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Probably because the larger sizes (usually) house larger conductors of greater currents.
I’m with you 100%, but if there’s a fault to the raceway, the FMC is still carrying that current to the nearest EGC. So the code book is saying that FMC above 1 1/4” doesn’t have the capacity to serve as the EGC for the higher current circuits, but is still expected to carry fault current from the same high current circuits back to an acceptable EGC (the wire ran inside the raceway and bonded to box or enclosure).
 
Correct me if I’m wrong but I think what @Dennis Alwon is driving at is the ability of the flex to carry fault current back to a wire type EGC (or pipe) to actually carry fault current back to the source. For example if there’s a 500’ run of 2” FMC, the NEC doesn’t permit it to be used as an EGC. However, if there’s a fault halfway through the run to the raceway then the FMC still needs to act like an EGC in a sense to carry fault current to the appropriate EGC. Comparing it to a piece of PVC in the middle of the run is a different animal, PVC isn’t conductive and won’t carry any current anywhere.
I agree the logic is flawed. If an ungrounded conductor faults to the flex, the flex will carry the fault current to the end(s) of the flex. So the flex is an acceptable EGC for a fault to the flex, but not for other faults? Why isnt the flex required to be an acceptable EGC?
 

junkhound

Senior Member
Location
Renton, WA
Occupation
EE, power electronics specialty
FWIW, 30 years ago I did a lot of high current testing (100s of kA simulating nuclear weapon ground burst EMP current).

What happens to 1-1/2" (or any size) EMT and flex is that the EMT will tend to collapse due to parallel magnetic forces, and flex wants to turn into a large diameter pancake due to magnetic forces thus tearing the flex apart. No EMT or flex used.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
...

Look I get that the flex is conductive and would clear a fault most of the time without an equipment grounding conductor but the NEC is basically saying the flex is not a ground. How does connecting the equipment grounding conductor in a jb or some other area changes the ability of the flex itself to carry a fault.

Well, for one thing, if the flex is bonded to an EGC at both ends then faupt current can travel on both directions on the flex.
 
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