Canless Can Light?

[wwhitney]

The one in your picture has the color temperature selection switch on the j-box. I think that means the driver is in the j-box.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[winnie]

Oh, individual LED junction voltage is between 1.8 and 3.6V, so the voltage of the LED lighting head will be low, and depend upon the number of junctions placed in series. I would expect most drivers to operate below 30V; some up to 60V, though I've not been following the tech recently.

-Jon

 

[winnie]

The only ones of these I've installed before did NOT have a driver in j-box. The driver was in the lamp.
Therefore that 6"-12" of cable would be 120V and unless line voltage was allowable in NM cable, I can't see that as being acceptable.

That makes sense. I was assuming a driver in the box, but if it is just a junction...I think you have a valid point. Perhaps there is an exception in the Chicago code for short NM or SO whips that are part of a listed assembly, but that would be up to Chicago.

-Jon

 

[Jerramundi]

That makes sense. I was assuming a driver in the box, but if it is just a junction...I think you have a valid point. Perhaps there is an exception in the Chicago code for short NM or SO whips that are part of a listed assembly, but that would be up to Chicago.

-Jon

There may be such an exception, but not one that I'm aware of. I do know that my local municipality has an amendment that says the section for NM cable in the NEC is "deleted in its' entirety." In other words, don't even think about it, lol.

They have the same amendment for PVC. "Deleted in its' entirety."

We're also limited to using FMC to 6 ft. Some municipalities say 3 ft. But I digress.

 

[480sparky]

Here's what in the j-box.... a small splice area and the driver. Driver (20-35vDC output) is separated from the 120v side. NM, MC, whatever you want to feed it with.

 

[Jerramundi]

Here's what in the j-box....

Ahh, okay. See the ones I've installed did NOT have a driver like this in the j-box. The driver was in the LED trim.

I still can't feed it w/ NM, as NM has been "deleted in its' entirety." But if that cable going from the box to the lamp is indeed low voltage, I can see this being acceptable.

 

[Jerramundi]

I'm thinking about cutting the hole, sliding in a piece of pipe down the joist space (strapped appropriately of course) with a short 3 ft FMC whip on either end. That much I still have to figure out, but I digress again.

Ultimately I was concerned about the acceptability of these types of fixtures in my area given the outlawing of NM cable... and it seems to me as long as the driver is indeed contained within that box (and not the LED trim) and subsequently that that short cable is low voltage (as opposed to line voltage), it would be okay.

 

[busman]

The biggest issue I have with these is the JB is not large enough for feed in and feed out.

 

[480sparky]

The biggest issue I have with these is the JB is not large enough for feed in and feed out.

It is if you're using 14.

 

[Jerramundi]

It is if you're using 14.

All EGC's counted as 1 box fill volume. 5 x #14 AWG wires = 1 in, 1 out

However, if you're following voltage drop recommendations, #14 AWG works for a portion of the floor that the main panel is on and that's it.
I actually worked in one village recently that outlawed #14 AWG entirely. Every residential branch circuit had to be a minimum of #12 AWG.

 

[busman]

All EGC's counted as 1 box fill volume. 5 x #14 AWG wires = 1 in, 1 out

However, if you're following voltage drop recommendations, #14 AWG works for a portion of the floor that the main panel is on and that's it.
I actually worked in one village recently that outlawed #14 AWG entirely. Every residential branch circuit had to be a minimum of #12 AWG.

I computed 10 sq. in. volume. There is no way that box is that big. I'm not even sure it has the 6 sq. in. for one cable.

 

[480sparky]

If it's listed and labeled for five 14s, then you can install five 14s.

 

[Jerramundi]

I computed 10 sq. in. volume. There is no way that box is that big. I'm not even sure it has the 6 sq. in. for one cable.

An interesting point of contention. Label says 6.8 cu, but also says 5 x #14's. Nonetheless, I feel the issue of the OP has been (mostly) resolved and this would be digression. I will admit that you have an interesting point of contention there, though.

 

[busman]

An interesting point of contention. Label says 6.8 cu, but also says 5 x #14's. Nonetheless, I feel the issue of the OP has been (mostly) resolved and this would be digression. I will admit that you have an interesting point of contention there, though.

I should have said cubic inched; my bad.

Mark

 

[mwm1752]

I believe they also make an extension whip for the class 2 cable if you want to mount the j box in a another area

 

[Jerramundi]

I should have said cubic inched; my bad.

You're good. What you meant was understood. It is interesting. The manufacturer does indeed seem to provide two conflicting ratings for box fill. It would seem the logical thing to do would be to go with the lower rating of 6.8 cu, but then each luminaire would be limited to one #14/3 or one #12/3 each, which makes for a really tough installation... the only solution to which, that I can see, would be coming off a center light box / something similar, OR mounting a separate j-box behind the removable luminaire, all of which kind of negate the efficient installation this type of fixture is ideally supposed to provide. All they really gotta do is make the box a little bigger. Not a huge ask, IMO.

 

[dcmccubbin]

Isn't the AHJ the only one who has an answer that matters to you?
I personally don't see what a prohibition on using NM cable has to do with a low-voltage connection on a listed device. I would take that to mean you won't use NM on the supply side.
I would call, visit, write, or email the permit office and ask.
Just don't tell them you are staring in a home improvement show on HGTV.

 

[Jerramundi]

Isn't the AHJ the only one who has an answer that matters to you?

Ultimately, yes.. and I am not opposed to contacting the AHJ. I just enjoy a good discussion here on the forum and getting people's input.

I personally don't see what a prohibition on using NM cable has to do with a low-voltage connection on a listed device. I would take that to mean you won't use NM on the supply side.

Well, a prohibition on NM cable implies that high voltage needs to be contained within a metal raceway, which has become standard practice in my area. You won't find people running anything other than low voltage outside of a ferrous metal conduit raceway around Chicago, at least not people that care about doing the job according to code.

That being said, if the transformer is housed in the LED retrofit and that " 6"-12" jumper cable " from the fixture/manufacturer's j-box is indeed line voltage, that would/could make the product not code compliant. Whereas if the transformer is housed in the fixture/manufacturer's j-box and that " 6"-12" jumper cable "is low voltage, it would logically follow that it is possibly code compliant as we are allowed to run low voltage cables outside of a ferrous metal conduit.

I'm used to not thinking twice about installing these types of fixtures in areas where NM cable, and thus high voltage outside of a ferrous metal conduit, is allowable... but where NM cable is not allowable, I'm forced to question if they would be allowable. Ultimately I just enjoy a good mental sprint on these forums.

 

[jimport]

The flexible lead that comes with the fixture is not NM cable.

 

[Jerramundi]

The flexible lead that comes with the fixture is not NM cable.

I understand. It's not about the particular type of cable.

It's about whether or not high voltage is required to be in a ferrous metal conduit, which is a common rule of thumb in Chicago.
I'm extrapolating this from the local prohibition on both PVC and NM cable. in addition to the common rule of thumb that we basically put everything in conduit.