Canless Can Light?

[480sparky]

I understand. It's not about the particular type of cable.

It's about whether or not high voltage is required to be in a ferrous metal conduit, which is a common rule of thumb in Chicago.
I'm extrapolating this from the local prohibition on both PVC and NM cable. in addition to the common rule of thumb that we basically put everything in conduit.

It's been that way in Chicago so long that no one really knows why. My guess is someone one the Board had a third cousin twice removed in the steel industry.

 

[Jerramundi]

It's been that way in Chicago so long that no one really knows why. My guess is someone one the Board had a third cousin twice removed in the steel industry.

A lot of people speculate that it's because of the unions. That they somehow lobbied for this rule to make electrical installations require more skill and thus eliminate non-union competition (i.e. bending conduit as opposed to installing cable).

I'm not insulting you NM guys. I'm just saying there exist a [mis]conception, especially around these parts, that conduit takes more skill than NM. However, I've done a few NM installations and there's more to it if done correctly than your typical conduit junky will admit... but not every remodeler takes NM as seriously as I would.

 

[Jerramundi]

Being a born and bred conduit junky myself, I'll be possibly the first Chicago electrician to admit that I was surprised to learn how much actually goes into a proper NM installation... because I was indoctrinated to believe the same thing - that NM is for schmucks.

I soon learned it's not as easy as they say it is when you do it per code. There's a lot more rules than I every thought there would be.

 

[James L]

Being a born and bred conduit junky myself, I'll be possibly the first Chicago electrician to admit that I was surprised to learn how much actually goes into a proper NM installation... because I was indoctrinated to believe the same thing - that NM is for schmucks.

I soon learned it's not as easy as they say it is when you do it per code. There's a lot more rules than I every thought there would be.

Most electricians (faketricians, really) around my area don't install it per code, and wanna argue about it when challenged. The 2 things I see most are staples too far apart and too much wire length from staple to ceiling boxes..."service loop" they like to call it.

But it's usually installed sloppy, too.

 

[Jerramundi]

Most electricians (faketricians, really) around my area don't install it per code, and wanna argue about it when challenged. The 2 things I see most are staples too far apart and too much wire length from staple to ceiling boxes..."service loop" they like to call it.

But it's usually installed sloppy, too.

It's especially tricky in a remodeling setting with these cans because you only have a 4" hole to work with. So you have to mount the box (and it should be mounted to the building structure IMO) through that 4" hole and also strap the cable (what is it 8" or 12"?) from the box connection. Point being, I find these guys, while intriguing, to not be as efficient as they claim to be unless you're doing them all the time and get the installation down to a near perfect science.

And you're absolutely right about "the service loop," haha. It sounds good.....

 

[480sparky]

A lot of people speculate that it's because of the unions. That they somehow lobbied for this rule to make electrical installations require more skill and thus eliminate non-union competition (i.e. bending conduit as opposed to installing cable).

I'm not insulting you NM guys. I'm just saying there exist a [mis]conception, especially around these parts, that conduit takes more skill than NM. However, I've done a few NM installations and there's more to it if done correctly than your typical conduit junky will admit... but not every remodeler takes NM as seriously as I would.

Actually, NM would be harder since you only get one chance to get it right. After the rock is on, you're stuck with what's behind the walls. That requires a good working knowledge of the Code. With pipe, you can always fix your screwups by pulling another wire or two in and CYA.

 

[James L]

It's especially tricky in a remodeling setting with these cans because you only have a 4" hole to work with. So you have to mount the box (and it should be mounted to the building structure IMO) through that 4" hole and also strap the cable (what is it 8" or 12"?) from the box connection. Point being, I find these guys, while intriguing, to not be as efficient as they claim to be unless you're doing them all the time and get the installation down to a near perfect science.

And you're absolutely right about "the service loop," haha. It sounds good.....

The 4" version is really tricky if you hit a joist. But there are 6" versions. I use some from Amazon which use a 6-3/8" hole.

You're right about that j-box/driver being mounted.
I'm seeing more and more guys using them on new construction.

I wired a new house using those a few months ago, and the builder supplied the lights. I told him I want them on the rough-in so I can mount the j-box.

He replied that his other electrician has been installing the driver on the finish. That means not mounting them. I don't like that part.

 

[Jerramundi]

The 4" version is really tricky if you hit a joist. But there are 6" versions. I use some from Amazon which use a 6-3/8" hole.

You're right about that j-box/driver being mounted.
I'm seeing more and more guys using them on new construction.

I wired a new house using those a few months ago, and the builder supplied the lights. I told him I want them on the rough-in so I can mount the j-box.

He replied that his other electrician has been installing the driver on the finish. That means not mounting them. I don't like that part.

When you do N.C., do you use the template metal or not? I've seen this template that looks like the bottom plane of a new construction housing that you can use.

 

[Jerramundi]

Actually, NM would be harder since you only get one chance to get it right. After the rock is on, you're stuck with what's behind the walls. That requires a good working knowledge of the Code. With pipe, you can always fix your screwups by pulling another wire or two in and CYA.

Well, I don't know if I would go as far as to say that NM is harder. There's an impossibly VAST array of variables one would have to analyze to come such a conclusion that isn't biased.

I'm just a conduit junky trying to give you NM guys a little credit.

 

[James L]

When you do N.C., do you use the template metal or not? I've seen this template that looks like the bottom plane of a new construction housing that you can use.

I haven't used any templates because they're all just flat. If they had a 3/8" or 1/2" lip around the opening, that would be better.

Around these parts, I don't know of any drywallers who could hit a flat template every time and keep their cutout bit in the circle - mostly thinking about the circle being under a joist, which is common enough.

And if the hole gets squirrelly to where the trim won't cover, then it creates a callback so they can patch before trim

I prefer to cut them out myself with a hole saw

Someone posted a pic of a template in this thread that has a way to fasten the driver I like that idea a lot. Just wish there was a lip

 

[Jerramundi]

Someone posted a pic of a template in this thread that has a way to fasten the driver I like that idea a lot. Just wish there was a lip

www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/lighting/products/documents/halo/brochures/halo-rl-dm-bro.pdf

You're right though, no lip. Hm...

Seems to me though, if you're going to pay for this + the direct mount... then might as well just buy a complete housing.

 

[James L]

View attachment 2553788

www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/lighting/products/documents/halo/brochures/halo-rl-dm-bro.pdf

You're right though, no lip. Hm...

Seems to me though, if you're going to pay for this + the direct mount... then might as well just buy a complete housing.

For sure. That plate has legs to mount between joists. I don't see any benefit in using it, might as well use a regular can and have flexibility of trim style and wattage.

I use 5" cans with a 5/6" trim because the drywallers here suck. I need a small can so my trims still cover a wacky cutout that doesn't get patched right.

 

[480sparky]

Well, I don't know if I would go as far as to say that NM is harder........

OK.... installing NM is a Thinking Mans' game.

 

[Jerramundi]

OK.... installing NM is a Thinking Mans' game.

As is roughing in conduit if done correctly and not sloppily. It's an art and involves a lot of math, foresight, and critical thinking skills.

You're just falling victim to the same bias that I used to fall victim too, only on the other side of the proverbial isle. The same bias that I'm trying to overcome in acknowledging that NM is not as easy as some of your opponents say it is.

I just strive to practice seeing things from alternative perspectives. The whole d**k measuring contest between NM guys and Conduit guys is a joke, IMO. Classic machismo bs.

 

[480sparky]

As is roughing in conduit if done correctly and not sloppily. It's an art and involves a lot of math, foresight, and critical thinking skills.

You're just falling victim to the same bias that I used to fall victim too, only on the other side of the proverbial isle. The same bias that I'm trying to overcome in acknowledging that NM is not as easy as some of your opponents say it is.

I just strive to practice seeing things from alternative perspectives.

Yes, bending pipe requires thought as well. But you gotta admit.... once the NM is rocked over, it's there. No "Oh, I forgot I should have used 14-4 for that dead-end three-way!"

Anyone can bend pipe decently. But they don't need to know much about the Code to do so. They person pulling in the THHN does.

 

[Jerramundi]

Anyone can bend pipe decently.

No. They really can't. You highly underestimate what it takes to run good conduit.
If you're spotting boxes everywhere without a care, maybe... but it can be really difficult sometimes to get a good run in in less than 360 degrees.

That doesn't even begin to touch on the mathematics behind it. Knowing all the different offset multipliers, how to apply them, shrinkage, 3 point saddles, 4 point saddles, box offsets, goose necks, 90's, stub 90's, kicks, rolling offsets that utilize the Pythagorean theorem, not using excessive couplings, not wasting pipe, good straight cuts, reaming your pipe properly so there's no burrs, installing your conduit so that it can be strapped appropriately and isn't just floating there...

...the skill it takes to get the holes drilled correctly so your pipe isn't all wonky and or improperly seated in the fittings. NM guys don't have to worry about that. Your holes could be off by FEET when running through multiple studs and there's zero problem other than needing some additional length in cable. I could go on for hours.

The point is I'm striving to see things from another perspective and acknowledge that there is skill involved in running NM. I invite you to try the same mental exercise in regards to running conduit and consider what clean, professional conduit runs look like and what is involved in accomplishing such.

 

[480sparky]

No. They really can't. You highly underestimate what it takes to run good conduit.
If you're spotting boxes everywhere without a care, maybe... but it can be really difficult sometimes to get a good run in in less than 360 degrees.

That doesn't even begin to touch on the mathematics behind it. Knowing all the different offset multipliers, how to apply them, shrinkage, 3 point saddles, 4 point saddles, box offsets, goose necks, 90's, stub 90's, kicks, rolling offsets that utilize the Pythagorean theorem, not using excessive couplings, not wasting pipe, good straight cuts, reaming your pipe properly so there's no burrs, installing your conduit so that it can be strapped appropriately and isn't just floating there...

...the skill it takes to get the holes drilled correctly so your pipe isn't all wonky and or improperly seated in the fittings. NM guys don't have to worry about that. Your holes could be off by FEET when running through multiple studs and there's zero problem other than needing some additional length in cable. I could go on for hours.

The point is I'm striving to see things from another perspective and acknowledge that there is skill involved in running NM. I invite you to try the same mental exercise in regards to running conduit and consider what clean, professional conduit runs look like and what is involved in accomplishing such.

Yes, they can. Anyone can bend pipe decently.

I never said they can create works of art with 3" rigid and concentric bends on their first day.

But anyone can, eventually, learn how to do it decently.

Whether they CARE to is a different story. They CAN, but most likely don't CARE if they do.

 

[Jerramundi]

Yes, they can. Anyone can bend pipe decently.

I never said they can create works of art with 3" rigid and concentric bends on their first day.

But anyone can, eventually, learn how to do it decently.

Whether they CARE to is a different story. They CAN, but most likely don't CARE if they do.

Now you're dodging and you know it. You know as well as I do your "anyone can do it" phrasing was never meant to imply the general potential of people's ability to learn how to bend conduit, but was rather intended to devalue what goes into running conduit as it compares to running NM. That's what makes sense in context at least.

Man you old timers are stubborn farts sometimes, lol. Here I am trying to extend the olive branch and bridge the conduit / NM divide and I feel like I'm now dodging arrows, lol.

 

[480sparky]

Now you're dodging and you know it. You know as well as I do your "anyone can do it" phrasing was never meant to imply the general potential of people's ability to learn how to bend conduit, but was rather intended to devalue what goes into running conduit as it compares to running NM. That's what makes sense in context at least.

Man you old timers are stubborn farts sometimes, lol. Here I am trying to extend the olive branch and bridge the conduit / NM divide and I feel like I'm now dodging arrows, lol.

There's no divide to bridge here, 'cept the one you imagine. I'm simply stating facts.

But go ahead and respond.... I'll let you have the last word.

 

[Jerramundi]