Career Change Inquiry

[highkvoltage]

Re: Career Change Inquiry

Peter. You are correct if you do quality work you should do very well in this trade, but there is not a shortage of electricans. I have talked to my union brothers all over the states and many will not see work this winter and properly going into spring. These are commerical/industrial electricans. As far as wiring methods when they bring the switchgear in on semitrucks prewired or these new prefab buildings with most of the mechanical systems installed it killing the trade as we once knew it. Would you as a contractor bid a lighting job today with conduit or relock MC. Even though the conduit job would be a better quality job if allowed most would put in the cheaper relock system. In todays market cheaper is better whether it is labor or material.

 

[peter d]

Re: Career Change Inquiry

highkvoltage,

Originally posted by highkvoltage:
I have talked to my union brothers all over the states and many will not see work this winter and properly going into spring.

I agree, there is no shortage of labor in the union market right now, but we weren't making an apples to apples comparison, since I was talking about the non-union sector.

At any rate, studies still indicate a continued shortage of electricians for years to come, as more people leave the trade than enter it.

Here are some articles if you're still not convinced.

As far as the prefabricated stuff goes, it's here to stay, so we better get used to it.

 

[iwire]

Re: Career Change Inquiry

Originally posted by highkvoltage:
Would you as a contractor bid a lighting job today with conduit or relock MC. Even though the conduit job would be a better quality job if allowed most would put in the cheaper relock system. In todays market cheaper is better whether it is labor or material.

And what is wrong with doing a quality job for less money?

If the customer wants the price reduced that is their choice.

These customers keep us working, if they are happy with MC instead of pipe so be it.

We wire some buildings with pre-fabed electric rooms. They where made in an American factory and to be quite honest look better than almost any built on site electric rooms.

The labeling, schematics laminated to the wall, bright lighting, etc. This leaves us free to concentrate on the branch circuits.

 

[petersonra]

Re: Career Change Inquiry

The fact is that someone somewhere is doing the work to prefab those prefabricated items, and make the MC cable. The labor is not necessarily lost, just moved around.

Companies don't want to take a year to wire up a building they can now wire in 6 months. And why should they have to wait? So a few extra tradesmen are employed?

IMO, this goes back to the argument by many old time union men that only union men have a right to a good paying job. Its pretty silly on the face of it, but that seems to be the basic complaint against any labor saving measure because virtually all the labor saving measures seem to replace trade union labor with non-union labor, or replace trade union labor with factory union labor.

I don't want to argue whether unions are good or bad. They had their time, and they did a lot of good for a lot of people back then. Now they seem more like an anachronism, something that just gets in the way of productivity and improvement. Its too bad unions have not figured that out, and figured out what to do about it.

If they want to survive, its going to be necessary for unions to remember that the only reason their members have jobs is because the companies employing them are making a profit.

Unions are going to have to deal with both specialization and flexibility in working arrangements if they want to outlive their current members.

I've seen a fair amount of work by both union and non-union contractors. I don't see a whole lot of difference in quality or price that I can attribute to being union (or not being union).

I do prefer non-union contractors because I do not want to be hassled by the union stewart over whether its OK for me to have a screwdriver in my pocket (I have had this happen). There seems to me a lot more inherent flexibility in dealing with non-union contractors and that is worth a lot to me. YMMV.

 

[roger]

Re: Career Change Inquiry

I'm not voicing an opinion one way or another, but here is an interesting article.

http://www.tdu.org/Convoy/Houston_nonunion/houston_nonunion.html


Roger

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Career Change Inquiry

That's hilarious.

So, these days, what does joining a union guarantee? I'm non-union in a fairly non-union area, and what I've heard coming from unions around here it doesn't seem to get you much. They get laid off / fired just like the rest of us, it seems.

But I never asked too many questions.

 

[peter d]

Re: Career Change Inquiry

Originally posted by highkvoltage:
I have talked to my union brothers all over the states and many will not see work this winter and properly going into spring.

The types of work that union companies typically do has stalled, no question. But when they signed their names on the union contract, they knew what they were getting themselves into.

I happen to like the union philosophy, but I declined a guaranteed spot in my area's union for one main reason: I strongly disagree with the "no competition" rule.

I have a hard time with an organization telling me that I can't make my living as an electrician while I'm laid off.

 

[petersonra]

Re: Career Change Inquiry

Unions have not dealt well with the rapidly spreading phenomenom of people going into business for themselves after being laid off. The numbers on how many people are doing this is staggering, and government statistics do not measure it well if at all, but you can see it in the gulf between the number of jobs (which basically only counts people working for someone else) and the number of people working (which includes the self-employed).

It seems to me that trade unions will eventually need to join the 21st century and understand that the growth in jiobs is not going to be in big companies, but in smaller companies and in self-employment.

 

[haskindm]

Re: Career Change Inquiry

The demand for electricians varies with the area. In our area there are many government installations and a strong union presence. This results in many electricians looking to do "side jobs". The result is that most residential wiring is being done "on the side". This has driven most mid-sized electricians out of business. You either need to be very small or large enough to do government and other large commericial jobs. The electrical trade is having trouble attracting young workers. First of all, it takes a large commitment to become a licensed electrician. In Maryland you must be a Master Electrician in order to legally contract work (many of the "side jobs" mentioned above are done illegally by people that don't have a license and who do not get their work inspected). To be a Master you must document 7-years of work experience "under the suervision of a Master Electrician" and pass an exam. Many young people are not willing to work for the wages that can be paid to a "helper" for seven years in order to become a Master. Also the conditions that electricians are expected to work in are less than ideal. The work does involve an element of danger that cannnot be completely eliminated. We are often asked to work in the cold, heat, rain, etc. Much residential work involves time spent in "crawl spaces" with the spiders, snakes, and rodents that inhabit many of these areas. Can the job of electrician be rewarding? Yes, it is a skilled trade and many of us take pride in our accomplishments. Is it an easy trade? Absolutely not. There are no guarantees of success. Many electrical contractors fail, some from poor management, and some through no fault of the owner - circumstances just conspire against them.
As for your particular situation, you would have to decide. In my opinion it would take many years before you could hope to equal the salary you are getting in the airline industry and there are no guarantees against unemployment in the electrical field either.

 

[jeff43222]

Re: Career Change Inquiry

As to whether there is a shortage of electricians, it often depends on whom you talk to.

A recent newsletter of the state electrical association (a contractor's organization) had a questionnaire for members asking them what kinds of issues are most important to lobby for in the coming legislative session. One issue listed was dealing with the "shortage" of licensed electricians (journeymen) by implementing a "residential wireman" license that could be obtained after only two years of experience (journeyman license requires four).

Over the summer I saw an article in the paper that said that the local IBEW had something like 400 licensed journeymen that it was unable to place into jobs.

Then I talked about this with someone at the Board of Electricity, which is the state agency in charge of licensing and inspections. Her reponse: Yes, there is a shortage of licensed electricians who are willing to work for low wages. The contractor's association seems to neglect that last part when they talk about any alleged shortages.

I imagine a lot depends on what part of the country you live in and what kind of licensing laws there are. If you live somewhere where there is a ready supply of cheap labor and licensing isn't much of an obstacle, then it would be tough to make it as an electrician.

 

[peter d]

Re: Career Change Inquiry

Originally posted by jeff43222:
I imagine a lot depends on what part of the country you live in and what kind of licensing laws there are. If you live somewhere where there is a ready supply of cheap labor and licensing isn't much of an obstacle, then it would be tough to make it as an electrician.

Good point Jeff. Here in New England, it takes a huge investment of time, schooling, and money (if you go to a trade school on your own) to become a journeyman electrician.

Add to that, becoming an electrician is "poo pooed" as a career option in every level of academia. I didn't even have a technical program at my high school; you had to be bussed to the next town. :roll:

Hence the labor shortage here.

 

[iwire]

Re: Career Change Inquiry

Originally posted by jeff43222:
I saw an article in the paper that said that the local IBEW had something like 400 licensed journeymen that it was unable to place into jobs.

Then I talked about this with someone at the Board of Electricity, which is the state agency in charge of licensing and inspections. Her reponse: Yes, there is a shortage of licensed electricians who are willing to work for low wages.

Who has the lowest yearly wage the person going to work every day or the ones sitting on the bench. :roll:

[ December 25, 2004, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[jeff43222]

Re: Career Change Inquiry

Originally posted by peter d:

Originally posted by jeff43222:
I imagine a lot depends on what part of the country you live in and what kind of licensing laws there are. If you live somewhere where there is a ready supply of cheap labor and licensing isn't much of an obstacle, then it would be tough to make it as an electrician.

Good point Jeff. Here in New England, it takes a huge investment of time, schooling, and money (if you go to a trade school on your own) to become a journeyman electrician.

Add to that, becoming an electrician is "poo pooed" as a career option in every level of academia. I didn't even have a technical program at my high school; you had to be bussed to the next town. :roll:

Hence the labor shortage here.

I know what you mean, and I pretty much agree with you. Going into a trade is generally seen as a lesser option than aiming for a job for which a college degree is required. Well, I have bachelor's degrees from two different state universities, with a total of three majors, and I work as an electrician. Guess what -- I like doing electrical work far more than I liked sitting in a cubicle at my boring salaried professional job.

I once spent a couple of days doing a difficult remodel job where I wound up bruised, scraped, dirty, and dog tired. After I finished the job, got home and cleaned up, I sat down and had a beer. I don't think beer ever tasted so good. It never tasted all that good after a day as a cubicle serf.

Most of my friends have master's or doctorate degrees and work at jobs where such degrees are needed. I'm fortunate that most of them have been very encouraging regarding my career choice (my lawyer friends are the most encouraging). Just because someone can go to college doesn't mean they should work at a white-collar job. I bet my old high school teachers would be quite disappointed if they found out what I currently do for a living. Then again, I like what I do, so I don't care if they are disappointed. I have another friend who used to be a teacher who bailed out of that and now works as a self-employed carpenter/remodeler. He also likes what he does.

As long as working in the trades is seen as mere "labor" instead of as more of a profession, many people will be discouraged from pursuing this kind of work, and the void will be filled in many cases by uninterested people who will work for low wages.

[ December 25, 2004, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: jeff43222 ]

 

[jeff43222]

Re: Career Change Inquiry

Originally posted by iwire:

Originally posted by jeff43222:
I saw an article in the paper that said that the local IBEW had something like 400 licensed journeymen that it was unable to place into jobs.

Then I talked about this with someone at the Board of Electricity, which is the state agency in charge of licensing and inspections. Her reponse: Yes, there is a shortage of licensed electricians who are willing to work for low wages.

Who has the lowest yearly wage the person going to work every day or the ones sitting on the bench. :roll:

Good question. I was told a few months ago that a journeyman gets half pay while he's on the bench. I don't know how that compares to an unlicensed helper who will take whatever he can get.

[ December 25, 2004, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: jeff43222 ]

 

[elektrafried]

Re: Career Change Inquiry

Originally posted by elektrafried:

Originally posted by iwire:
Police, Firefighters and Soldiers all do dangerous work.

Electricians should not be doing dangerous work. We can and should be shutting off the power.

I seem to recall the numbers from OSHA last year put electricians in the top 10 for construction deaths.The #1 killer was falls.Turning off the electricity will not save you from a fall Brother,like it or not this is a dangerous business.Two killed and two injured here last week when a scissor lift fell over.

Just took 5 hours of the OSHA 10 class,have to go back in the morning for the other 5 hours (hence the name ) According to the instructor and the book the number one cause of construction deaths is falls.

 

[Devild0g]

I am in a situation where I have to look for a new job. Most of my jobs and training have been in the electrical field. I have been in the Marine Corps for over 13 years and have been trained as a radio repairman and an avionics technician. I found out recently that I will be retiring early from the Marine Corps (for medical reasons). I may only have a couple months to look for another job. I love working with electronics, particularly in troubleshooting and repair. I am living in Massachusetts and right now I plan to stay here. Does anyone have any information or advice on how I can get into a good paying job (around here that means approx 50k min to support a family of five) utilizing my electronic training and experience in the military?

 

[77401]

20 years ago I'd recommend a career in the trades. Today I would not.
For the amount of time, effort & education involved to get to the place, I'm at today I would never do it again. Don't get me wrong, I like where I'm at but the environment has changed.
Problems are... Illegal immigants working for nothing while getting licensed (masters too) I never said they were stupid! States lowering the qualifications for licensees & test are getting easier every year. Unions created a prevailing wage, which translates to a minimun wage, which means you'll never get more if you work harder than your brother, so why bust your ass when he won't.

Possible other career choices with less effort & time involved and you can still be your own boss. RealEstate, Insurance, Computer related fields, Hell... there is always landscaping & painting, where you can hire the endless supply of of expendable labor for cheap.

 

[haskindm]

DevilD0g,
Look for companies that contract with the government, most are desperate for people with military experience. Often you will be employed doing the same work that you did in the military. Look at the equipment that you are working on; Who makes it? Contact them for employment information.

 

[dlhoule]

Problems are... Illegal immigants working for nothing while getting licensed (masters too) I never said they were stupid.

Well, if you lived north of the border, maybe you wouldn't have that problem.

Why just in the last 2 or 3 days I heard our illustrious president say "Hiring illegal immigrants is against the law and we are going to enforce that law."

Now I expect that statement to cause some illegal profiling. How else (other than asking for proper documentation) can you tell if a person who looks Mexican with very poor english speaking ability is legal or not.

Do you think employers are going to ask everybody or just people who might seem to be Mexicans here illegally?

Dammed if you do and Dammed if you don't.

 

[fizzy]

I am a 20 year airline mechanic considering journeyman training as a backup to the faltering airlines. As a rule can a person make a decent living doing small jobs? I get conflicting responses from friends. Seems that small residential needs would be limitless.

Seems like a good move.

Just know what the requirements are for the state that you plan to do electrical work in.

In California the standards and requirements are continually increasing: http://www.dir.ca.gov/DAS/ECUSpanish/ElectricianTraineeNEWRegistrationSP.pdf