Ceiling fan boxes

[Dennis Alwon]

As long as we are all being so disagreeable, I disagree that all ceiling boxes should be fan rated.

It would be all boxes just the ones with the extra wire where a fan may be installed. Of course one could put a fan anywhere but the wording on that would not change.

BTW, I have no issue with you all disagreeing with my input. I still think it is a good idea with very small cost

 

[JFletcher]

As long as the existing box is rated for a ceiling fan, it does not need to be changed out, unless the box fill is blown, in which case I would put a new box in.

The NEC should not speculate as to what DIY guy may do with a ceiling box in the future. With that logic we might as well run 12 / 4 NM everywhere so there is power, neutrals, and switch legs in every single box. Cutting out a non rated box and putting a rated box in place is not a big deal.

The whole thing is overblown anyway, I have never heard of, seen, or read a new story about an improperly installed ceiling fan coming down on somebody. I'm sure it's happened, however it's probably about as likely as getting mauled to death by a grizzly bear as you trip over the edge of a mountain and gets struck by lightning while holding a winning Powerball ticket

 

[LarryFine]

I have never heard of, seen, or read a new story about an improperly installed ceiling fan coming down on somebody.

I haven't actually seen it occur, but I have had three or four different customers to whom it has happened. In both cases, the boxes were plastic, and in one of them, the fan landed on the customer's daughter.

 

[Little Bill]

I've seen it happen as well a couple of times. The problem is most people think the screws won't hold in a plastic box or for nail-on boxes, the nails will pull out. In my case, it was a plastic box. The nails held, the mounting screws for the fan held, it was the "ears" around the nails that broke. In one case, it was a large fan and had someone not been there it would have fallen on a child. It was only held by the ground wire but had fallen enough to strike someone. They tied it up with a rope until they could get someone (me) to fix it.

But I agree, most older boxes would hold a light fan, but I wouldn't bet on it.

 

[infinity]

Another reason why the independent support is sometimes needed is when you have a ceiling mud box in a poured concrete deck. Do we really want to have to chop out a mud box and install a fan rated box? Not all ceiling fans get hung below Sheetrock.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I haven't actually seen it occur, but I have had three or four different customers to whom it has happened. In both cases, the boxes were plastic, and in one of them, the fan landed on the customer's daughter.

I got a call because the fan was hanging by the wires. It was a very lightweight 36" fan that had been hung with a pop in round box. It was there for many many years before it fell.

 

[kwired]

I got a call because the fan was hanging by the wires. It was a very lightweight 36" fan that had been hung with a pop in round box. It was there for many many years before it fell.

Long time rules of fan rated box or independent support is sufficient. That pop in box was never acceptable for fan support to the NEC.

Proper installation of a fan rated box is important as well.

Had a call once with fan hanging by the wires. Was a metal octagon box but only fastened with short "roofing nails" and had been there for ~40 years, maybe around 20 of those years with a fan attached. Even though it wasn't a fan rated box, had it been fastened with screws it probably never would have come down. Seen many fans attached to round plastic nail on boxes and right or wrong I haven't seen one come down yet, but not many fans are all that heavy either.

 

[jimport]

I think a better change would be to require fan rated boxes wherever a fan could be installed, not just where extra switched hots are available .

 

[kwired]

I think a better change would be to require fan rated boxes wherever a fan could be installed, not just where extra switched hots are available .

Nothing wrong with requiring a fan rated box if it is actually supporting a fan either, and let the designer decide if it is a good idea to use a fan rated box in case a fan would be installed in the future.

NEC says it isn't intended to be a design manual.

 

[qcroanoke]

As long as we are all being so disagreeable, I disagree that all ceiling boxes should be fan rated.

I agree with that.

 

[tom baker]

there are retrofit ceiling fan boxes, they have arms that go thru the hole and crank out against the joists. I have done several in lath and plaster.
Installing the fan is harder with all the little screws that get dropped.

 

[brantmacga]

BTW, I have no issue with you all disagreeing with my input. I still think it is a good idea with very small cost

I know some EC’s that would lose their mind over this.

I do some custom residential, and I have to order almost every single box I use because my supplier won’t stock them. I use P&S quick-clip device boxes; I don’t even know what a regular device box costs, but my supplier told me the quick-clip boxes are about $0.10 more per gang, and the residential guys have a fit over paying it. So I have to order them.

I use Arlington in-boxes for exterior receps; again, I have to order those as I’m the ONLY person here that will buy them. They’re $10/ea and look so much better than a cut-in box with an in-use cover.

Same with P&S recessed TV boxes; literally the only person that shops at this supply house that will buy them.

But I get it. Some people are just more interested in charging half the price and doing double the work to keep up.


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[brantmacga]

there are retrofit ceiling fan boxes, they have arms that go thru the hole and crank out against the joists. I have done several in lath and plaster.
Installing the fan is harder with all the little screws that get dropped.

I use those too. They can be a little aggravating but it beats crawling in the attic.


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[ActionDave]

I know some EC’s that would lose their mind over this.

I do some custom residential, and I have to order almost every single box I use because my supplier won’t stock them. I use P&S quick-clip device boxes; I don’t even know what a regular device box costs, but my supplier told me the quick-clip boxes are about $0.10 more per gang, and the residential guys have a fit over paying it. So I have to order them....

I know what you mean.

We always did mostly commercial and some custom homes. I never liked three gang nail on boxes, they just never seem to come out flush or level, so I always use a screw gun bracket, metal box, and mud ring. The whole set up probably costs five dollars more than a three gang fiber box. Doing some work for a new contractor and he is very impressed with the set up. "I have been asking electricians for years for a better way to do three and four gang switches." One switch box was enough move us to the top of his list of electricians.

 

[kwired]

there are retrofit ceiling fan boxes, they have arms that go thru the hole and crank out against the joists. I have done several in lath and plaster.
Installing the fan is harder with all the little screws that get dropped.

I know what you mean.

We always did mostly commercial and some custom homes. I never liked three gang nail on boxes, they just never seem to come out flush or level, so I always use a screw gun bracket, metal box, and mud ring. The whole set up probably costs five dollars more than a three gang fiber box. Doing some work for a new contractor and he is very impressed with the set up. "I have been asking electricians for years for a better way to do three and four gang switches." One switch box was enough move us to the top of his list of electricians.

Maybe not so popular with three gang but there are 4 gang non metallic boxes with a bracket that is a big help in leveling and stabilizing of the box.

I see plastic three and four gang boxes getting twisted when drywall is installed. They cut it out with roto zip type tool and if it is being twisted at that time the cut opening is distorted to the same shape. often enough you can't make a cover plate fit the devices because they are not all on one plane.

 

[jap]

Was a metal octagon box but only fastened with short "roofing nails" and had been there for ~40 years, maybe around 20 of those years with a fan attached.

I've seen that also and wondered how some people are so lucky.

I think it's just that they don't give it a second thought.

If I did that, the fan would fall out of the ceiling before I could even get my ladder out from underneath it.

JAP>

 

[electricguy61]

A better proposal would be make the use of fan boxes a requirement for all ceiling lighting outlets. BTW although I understand your logic I disagree that the independent support allowance should be removed from the NEC.

I agree. Plastic fan rated boxes are just a couple of dollars, and would help ensure a safe installation of a fan, chandelier, etc.

 

[Little Bill]

I know what you mean.

We always did mostly commercial and some custom homes. I never liked three gang nail on boxes, they just never seem to come out flush or level, so I always use a screw gun bracket, metal box, and mud ring. The whole set up probably costs five dollars more than a three gang fiber box. Doing some work for a new contractor and he is very impressed with the set up. "I have been asking electricians for years for a better way to do three and four gang switches." One switch box was enough move us to the top of his list of electricians.

What's a "screw gun bracket"?

 

[jap]

Probably similar to B-line BB2-16T.

JAP.

 

[kwired]

What's a "screw gun bracket"?

My thoughts was missing punctuation ... screw gun, bracket, metal box....