Certified Contractor

[eds]

My Cutler Hammer sales rep has approached my company about becoming one of there certified contractors. Any body have any experiance with this setup? I do some service work, but that has not been my bread and butter, and they would like a thousand dollars to go thru there certification process. One thing that might app[eal to me is a link from their website, has this type of advertising worked out for anyone?

 

[shockin]

I got the same offer from my rep. The $1000 for 5 guys isn't too bad. My guys could certainly use the sales techniques they teach. That being said - I think I'll pass.

 

[zog]

Keep in mind it is not really a "Certification", that term gets mis-used often. "Factory authorized" would be more accurate.

 

[shockin]

I believe that this is more along the lines of certified as oppsed the autorized

The patches they give you for the shirts even say "Eaton Certified Electrical Contractor".

Their web site advertises the same thing. They seem to want to make sure the consumer knows that they have certified you.

http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/Markets/Electrical/BusinessPartners/CertifiedContractors/index.htm

 

[zog]

I believe that this is more along the lines of certified as oppsed the autorized

The patches they give you for the shirts even say "Eaton Certified Electrical Contractor".

Their web site advertises the same thing. They seem to want to make sure the consumer knows that they have certified you.

http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/Markets/Electrical/BusinessPartners/CertifiedContractors/index.htm

Not a real certification. A real certification requires the involvement of a nationally recognized out side 3rd party certifing agency. NETA and NICET are 2 examples of these agencies in the electrical industry.

Eaton is issuing you a certificate, thats it. Not picking on Eaton here, I see this all the time from other places. In 15 years in the training biz and 22 years in the nuclear industry I have seen this issue of "Certification" come up a lot. I could "Certify" you as a nuclear operator and give you a certificate that says so but a "Certification" from the Nuclear Regulatory Commision (NRC) is the only thing that will matter.

You might learn a little in a 25 hour class (Some basics), and the Patch will look nice on your jacket but take a close look at what this really is. It may bring in some business, not saying it wont.

 

[shockin]

It would seem to me that a manufacture would have the ability to Certify someone to install their product.

If the mfg doesn't have the right to certify this, who does?

 

[mkgrady]

Anybody can certify anybody as anything. It just means a lot more to more people when the party making the certification seems to be a big deal.

I managed numerous contracts where the MV cable splicers had to be "certified cable splicers". Their certification had to be submitted before they could splice. The splicer had to have certain experience to qualify. I would certify that the splicers had that experience.

 

[zog]

It would seem to me that a manufacture would have the ability to Certify someone to install their product.

If the mfg doesn't have the right to certify this, who does?

Like I said, an independent 3rd party nationally recognized certification organization.

 

[zog]

I managed numerous contracts where the MV cable splicers had to be "certified cable splicers". Their certification had to be submitted before they could splice. The splicer had to have certain experience to qualify. I would certify that the splicers had that experience.

Are you part of the NCSCB? If not your "certification" was falsly submitted.

http://www.njatc.org/cert/ncscb/index.aspx

This is a perfect example of what I was talking about (Should have used this instead of the nuke one). The NCSCB is a real certifing body through the NJATC it is the nationally recognized 3rd party certification body.

 

[mkgrady]

Are you part of the NCSCB? If not your "certification" was falsly submitted.

http://www.njatc.org/cert/ncscb/index.aspx

This is a perfect example of what I was talking about (Should have used this instead of the nuke one). The NCSCB is a real certifing body through the NJATC it is the nationally recognized 3rd party certification body.

I hereby certify that your accusation is incorrect. Signed MKGRADY

You can't say my certification was false and be correct. When I certified those splicers it was not a requirement that they be certified in accordance with NCSCB. It was required that they be certified cable splicers with experience in XYZ type splices for a certain duration of time. I used the exact language that the specification required.

The requirements were so specific that a certificate from NCSCB or any other body might have been accepted but it would not have met the requirements of the specification.

 

[iwire]

Like I said, an independent 3rd party nationally recognized certification organization.

I would say that is an opinion not a fact.

Can you point to a law that requires 'an independent 3rd party nationally recognized certification organization' in order for the word 'certified' to be attached to anything?

 

[zog]

I would say that is an opinion not a fact.

Can you point to a law that requires 'an independent 3rd party nationally recognized certification organization' in order for the word 'certified' to be attached to anything?

Well I just certified my self as a certified determiner of certifications, I made myself a certificate and everything.

 

[zog]

I would say that is an opinion not a fact.

Can you point to a law that requires 'an independent 3rd party nationally recognized certification organization' in order for the word 'certified' to be attached to anything?

Not a law, but thats what a real certification is. I know you just finished becoming a "certified" thermographer, not sure to what level but it met the ASNT SNT-TC-1A certification requirements. Now say after all that training (And expense) you went through, you bid on a IR job that required a "certified thermographer" to do the work and some low ball guy from Joe's Electric* wins the job and produces a certification from old Joe himself, in other words his employer (Joe) made the decision he was certified, downloaded a certificate from the Microsoft word site and printed his guy out a certificate. Should those be treated equally?

The U.S. Department of Education does not itself accredit institutions or programs, but does publish a list of nationally recognized accrediting agencies that the Secretary of Education "determines to be reliable authorities as to the quality of education or training provided by the institutions of higher education and the higher education programs they accredit. An agency seeking national recognition by the Secretary must meet the Secretary's procedures and criteria for the recognition of accrediting agencies, as published in the Federal Register. Some of the criteria for recognition, such as the criterion requiring a link to Federal programs, have no bearing on the quality of an accrediting agency; however, they do have the effect of making some agencies ineligible for recognition for reasons other than quality. The recognition process involves not only filing an application with the U.S. Department of Education but also review by the National Advisory Committee on Institutional Quality and Integrity, which makes a recommendation to the Secretary regarding recognition.

Anything less than one of those programs is no better than Joes certificate he pronted out on his computer so his guy could win that "certified" IR job from you.

* Joes electric is a fictional company I made up for this post, no offense to anyone who actually works for a company called joes electric.

 

[mkgrady]

Well I just certified my self as a certified determiner of certifications, I made myself a certificate and everything.

Now you get it!

I'm not saying certifcations are worthless. They are not. There is some liability in making a certification that someone relies upon. And there is the reputation of the certifying body or person. Certifications can have real value, but in many cases they just don't mean much.

 

[mkgrady]

Not a law, but thats what a real certification is. I know you just finished becoming a "certified" thermographer, not sure to what level but it met the ASNT SNT-TC-1A certification requirements. Now say after all that training (And expense) you went through, you bid on a IR job that required a "certified thermographer" to do the work and some low ball guy from Joe's Electric* wins the job and produces a certification from old Joe himself, in other words his employer (Joe) made the decision he was certified, downloaded a certificate from the Microsoft word site and printed his guy out a certificate. Should those be treated equally?

Nobody would treat them equally. But if a solicitation simply says you must a certified thermographer with no other criteria they may get one certified by Joe's Electric. The guy that Joe certifies could also be the best thermographer in the world.

 

[zog]

Now you get it!

I always have, there is a difference between a certificate of completion and a certification.

I'm not saying certifcations are worthless. They are not. There is some liability in making a certification that someone relies upon. And there is the reputation of the certifying body or person.

Well said, so in the cable splicing example there is the nationally recognized NCSCB and someone who said thier guys are certified. Big difference.

Certifications can have real value, but in many cases they just don't mean much.

Right, like the one that started this whole thread, looks good to the homeowner as a patch on the jacket, but dosent mean much.

 

[Power Tech]

I personally do not like or use CH.

Their tech screwed me out of a few grand by going directly to the customer and selling equipment when I called and paid him!

OOOOH! I am still mad.