CFL Safety Poll

[mxslick]

Here are the warnings from a metal halide lamp.

(Quote function didn't pick up the text of what Bob posted.)

Bob, I reiterate the main point: we need to get one thing crystal clear, for the purposes of this discussion, I am talking about lamps that are found most commonly in homes, specifically in sleeping and living quarters. How many homes are you aware of that have metal halides in the bed or living rooms?

(Unless they're involved in growing of special crops that is.)

The luminares for metal halide are designed, if installed/operated properly, to help contain the glass from a bulb rupture. Same thing applies to the Xenon Lamphouses for film projectors, but again those aren't found in everyday homes.

Also, both metal halide lamp packaging (as per your quote) and Xenon bulb packaging CLEARLY state the hazards involved, including END-OF-LIFE failure modes.

Anyone seen ANY CFL package that states that smoke/melting plastic is a possible end-of-life mode?

I don't disagree with the content of what you posted, but I strongly disagree with the context of the post.

 

[weressl]

Yep, it's just you.

I participate in motocross with the full knowledge of all the risks involved, including death, and wear the appropriate protective gear while participating. Then again, I ate foods that were healthy for me (rich in Vitamin K for example) and yet I have nearly died -twice- from blood clots. I was literally putting myself at an unknown risk by eating those foods, as I was unaware I was susceptable to clotting.

I don't see people in their homes wearing PPE or gas masks, or walking around with fire extinguishers 24/7 to protect themselves from a latent hazard caused by an object that 99.999% of the public will ASSUME is reasonably safe.

Again, YOU don't get it..quit comparing apples to oranges!! I don't ride a motocross bike through people's living rooms or homes...and I don't have CFL's mounted on my bike.

As for your comment about offering up no technical data, I can partially agree..I am NOT a fully-equipped testing lab, I can only report on findings done by research online, and by the limited data I get from friends and family who have experienced failures of CFL's themselves. And by the dissection of the CFL that failed, WITHOUT SMOKE OR MELTING, from my own home.

You need to go back to THIS THREAD, there HAVE been cases of a CFL catching fire. Why do you think that thread got started? :roll:



How do you figure that? The poll states two very clear options in each case..smoking/non-smoking and preference of continued purchase based on confidence.

If I really wanted to "generate desired results" I would have omitted the options to choose the cheaper lamp and not mentioned the option to re-buy the one that smokes. :roll:

There have been NO OFFICIALY documented and investigated cases of fire due to CFL end-of-life failure. There are anecdotal, hearsay tales about CFL's catching fire. UL tests for flammability and no UL tested CFL would catch on fire or melt. Fire-resistant, thermosetting material is the utilized construction material.

A non-biased poll would have asked:

Would you purchase a CFL that has been tested by UL and UL determined that the end-of-life failure mode may result in self-extinguishing smoldering of the tube base, discoloration but no fire hazard.

or



Would you be willing to pay extra for a CFL that also meets the the safety criteria of UL but the end-of life failure will produce no visible change to the luminaire. Would you be willing to pay:

1. 20% extra
2. 35% extra
3. 50% extra
4. 100% extra

At this point you have no idea what the technical solution would be so to suggest that a simple fuse would do the job is purely hypothetical, so is the simplistic assumption that it would cost $1.

Your rhetorical flourishes about PPE and fire extuinguishers just give more credence your inability of rational and unemotional debate based on techincal facts. Let me repeat, and please do read it slowly: UL had determined that the failure mode does NOT represent a safety hazard. If you don't believe that then why do you believe that only TESTED safety gear will protect you while moto-crossing?

BTW: I would not pay a red cent for that ever elusive 'piece of mind'. And our audience here supposed to be technical people? God help us........:roll:

 

[iwire]

Tony,

Your poll is hopelessly skewed toward a specif result and it does not represent the thread you linked it to.

Basically your poll asks me if I would spend a dollar more for a non-smoker. But the thread you linked to was about a free lamp provided by the utility.

So in that case the purchaser at the power company was probably given X amount of dollars and told to get as many lamps for that price as possible, he gets a low price, sees that the product is listed so he buys them.


Now let me ask this, how many people report each non-smoking CFL failure to you?

We here about the few bad failures, we do not here about the millions of uneventful failures.

As far as the HIDs you really don't see a connection? A certain percentage of equipment is going to fail badly no mater who makes it.

And while I do not sleep under a HID lamp I would not be happy to get hot glass tossed on me while at the store or office either but it seems it has been decided it is an acceptable risk.

 

[mxslick]

Laszlo and Bob, while I respect both your opinions, I feel that you are both still not getting the point of what I'm saying. One cannot compare the situations of commercial application equipment like Metal Halide fixtures and MV fuses with equipment that is sold by every big box and discount store for use in homes. (And before Bob debates that, I am aware that some big box stores sell metal halide/arc fixtures.)

THAT is the point of my position as well as the reasoning behind the polls.

I have also already conceded that my data thus far is not of a broad scope, but based on the same posts and research that most others here have done. I do not have the time or resources to mount a full-scale investigation or to start a program to have people worldwide send me their old CFL's for testing.

Nor is this the place to get into the exact engineering requirements to make the "perfect" CFL. The premise of the added fuse is based on some of my research that shows that end-of-life is typically accompanied by a sharp rise in ballast current draw, so it would be logical that perhaps a properly rated fuse would blow before any component burnouts would happen, right?

As for the poll, so far the majority of votes disagree with both your opinions on this subject.

I do enjoy the fact that we can have this discussion though!

If you don't believe that then why do you believe that only TESTED safety gear will protect you while moto-crossing?

What I don't believe is that UL is perfect, they can and have made mistakes. Just go to the CPSC recall page and see how many NRTL products are recalled for safety hazards.

And as for the motocross gear, there have been injuries and deaths with the best gear money can buy, even those with the highest ratings. Just as wearing the highest rated arc flash gear can help protect you from an arc blast, you can still get hurt or die even with proper PPE.

 

[weressl]

As for the poll, so far the majority of votes disagree with both your opinions on this subject.

Look Buster, when Bob and I agree on something, your chances are snowball in hell.........

Just conceede and slink away........

 

[weressl]

(Quote function didn't pick up the text of what Bob posted.)

Bob, I reiterate the main point: we need to get one thing crystal clear, for the purposes of this discussion, I am talking about lamps that are found most commonly in homes, specifically in sleeping and living quarters. How many homes are you aware of that have metal halides in the bed or living rooms?

(Unless they're involved in growing of special crops that is.)

The luminares for metal halide are designed, if installed/operated properly, to help contain the glass from a bulb rupture. Same thing applies to the Xenon Lamphouses for film projectors, but again those aren't found in everyday homes.

Also, both metal halide lamp packaging (as per your quote) and Xenon bulb packaging CLEARLY state the hazards involved, including END-OF-LIFE failure modes.

Anyone seen ANY CFL package that states that smoke/melting plastic is a possible end-of-life mode?

I don't disagree with the content of what you posted, but I strongly disagree with the context of the post.

The premise of your argument is fundamentaly flawed UNLESS you are able to demostrate that the HID sources are prohibited in "lamps that are found most commonly in homes, specifically in sleeping and living quarters".


Please stop your repetition of the myth of 'melting' plastic. (Palstic and melting is redundant to begin with.) As I said the material is thermosetting, meaning it turns to a brittle, craked form before it charres and then ash.

 

[weressl]

I have also already conceded that my data thus far is not of a broad scope, but based on the same posts and research that most others here have done. I do not have the time or resources to mount a full-scale investigation or to start a program to have people worldwide send me their old CFL's for testing.

Nor is this the place to get into the exact engineering requirements to make the "perfect" CFL. The premise of the added fuse is based on some of my research that shows that end-of-life is typically accompanied by a sharp rise in ballast current draw, so it would be logical that perhaps a properly rated fuse would blow before any component burnouts would happen, right?

What research? (For both assertion...) A CFL ballast? What are the internal components of that ballast? Are they the same as the conventional ballasts? Which ballasts, magnetic, hybrid or electronic? Each has different failure mode...... What does the CFL employ?

Keep digging....we can hardly see the top of your head......:smile:

 

[LarryFine]

Okay, to add more commentary: If the two CFL's came with the same warranty, I'd buy the cheaper one. Then, when it smoked, and using the existence of non-smokers as evidence that its an intentional decision to produce smokers, I'd start a class-action suit against the smoking-CFL's manufacturer.

How's that? :grin:

 

[weressl]

Okay, to add more commentary: If the two CFL's came with the same warranty, I'd buy the cheaper one. Then, when it smoked, and using the existence of non-smokers as evidence that its an intentional decision to produce smokers, I'd start a class-action suit against the smoking-CFL's manufacturer.

How's that? :grin:

..and conflagrating gunpowder is unsafe.:smile:

So y'all just can keep yer guns, but no ammo......because it can not be made safe.

 

[quogueelectric]

Remember the bovine motto............. Dont be so cheap. A little BBQ'd mercury never hurt anyone.

 

[roger]

Look Buster, when Bob and I agree on something, your chances are snowball in hell.........

Not to mention it's also scary.

Roger

 

[iwire]

Not to mention it's also scary.

Roger

It may well be one of the signs of the apocalypse. :wink:

 

[cowboyjwc]

..and conflagrating gunpowder is unsafe.:smile:

So y'all just can keep yer guns, but no ammo......because it can not be made safe.

While I don't agree with this, I just thought it was funny, because if my house ever burns, the fire department will have to wait at the end of the block until the last round goes off and who knows how long that could take.

 

[roger]

It may well be one of the signs of the apocalypse. :wink:

Yeah, I think I have read somewhere that is a sign. :wink:

Roger

 

[weressl]

Yeah, I think I have read somewhere that is a sign. :wink:

Roger

The second sign is when the sky starts falling.......

But hey, here is a CLF driver. You can't - or shouldn't - really call them ballasts anymore.

 

[brian john]

It may well be one of the signs of the apocalypse. :wink:

Wait is that 4 horsemen coming out of the sunrise?

 

[mxslick]

<snip>

But hey, here is a CLF driver. You can't - or shouldn't - really call them ballasts anymore.

Finally, something in this thread you and I agree on 100%

Wait is that 4 horsemen coming out of the sunrise?

Too bad I don't know where to find a link to a song I know would be appropriate here...
(The song is "Knights of Cydonia" by Muse)

 

[weressl]

Finally, something in this thread you and I agree on 100%



Too bad I don't know where to find a link to a song I know would be appropriate here...
(The song is "Knights of Cydonia" by Muse)

Then - I think - you also agree that the failure mode protection would be a tad more complex than a simple fuse.

My point in the entire discourse was that if UL and NSC says it is OK for CFL's to fail that way, I yield to them because I will never argue with a brain-surgeon how to cut. It is NOT an oversight or a mistake by UL -as you stated -, they acknowledge and recognize the failure mode AND state that it does not compromise safety.

Were you thinking something like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_sBOsh-vyI

 

[LarryFine]

Back at ya! Be sure to check out the datasheet pdf here: http://www.fairchildsemi.com/pf/FA/FAN7710.html

 

[mxslick]

Laszlo, yep that's the song...bizarre video though.

As a footnote, the circuitry of the Sylvania CFL I have dissected (I really need to get that pic taken and up here) is all discrete components...guess there are many possible ways to light up a CFL...

Right now I have other things of concern...rumor has it I have some issues at UC Irvine with my film projectors as a result of the recent earthquakes.