How many have ever challenged an electrical inspectors interpretation of the NEC? Seems like I've read a lot of threads stating the "electrical inspector told me its a code violation ". It appears a fair amount of people take the electrical inspectors word and don't challenge them on it being accurate or correct. I say ask the electrical inspector for a code reference. Have them back up the statements they are telling you.
Challenging an Electrical Inspector
- Thread starter chris1971
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JFletcher
Senior Member
- Location
- Williamsburg, VA
The first inspection I ever failed was in MD. It wasnt my work, but a job I inherited. I knew it was stuffed up big time. Inspector beats me to the site by 5 minutes, walks 4 or 5 rooms on the 2nd floor (a hotel), fails the whole thing. One thing he gigged me on was not using bushings in metal studs to run ENT. I challenged that. He placed a call, asked his supervisor "does ENT need bushings when run thru metal stud", got a "no", hung up and promptly apologized. ofc there were numerous other problems the job legitimately failed on, but that inspector was very cool with my challenge. Maybe because I phrased it as a statement/question "I didnt think ENT had to be run thru bushings(?)" rather than getting combative, which was pointless given the incoming failure. Having to pull ALL that ENT out to install grommets/bushings would have been a massive pita.
I challenged on inspector in LA for a failed LV inspection, even showed him the exact same install listed on 3Ms site. He wouldnt have it. Owner was informed we could fight it at the great risk of holding up the insulation and drywall. He paid to have it reworked rather than fight it. I didnt eat it because it was a compliant install.
I'm not saying argue with them for the sake of arguing. I've had conversations with inspectors after they have said something wasn't compliant. I always ask the inspector to list a code reference or references so I can review what they are talking about. If I can have the inspector interpret the code the way I understand it then, I've saved money.
rudiseldb
Member
- Location
- Oregon City
First as a head of the second largest program in Oregon, that sucks you feel that way. I think we all have a job to do. In Oregon we have cite it write it. I respect and my employees do too all of you. Ask him or her the code reference
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goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
I've challenged EI's several times, some with success and some without. I've even contacted the State authorities to verify that my complaints were accurate before any confrontations. The results you get are dependent on the way you come across. Before you make your phone call to the EI and start ranting and raving make sure you've done your research and have Code references ready supporting your position. If you treat the EI with dignity and respect you'll get the same in return.
In many cases if the corrections are minor, many of us have just gone ahead and made the changes cited by the EI in order to keep the job moving irrespective of whether he is right or wrong. You have to pick and choose your battles to preserve your mental health.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
I have also challenged and won with no repercussions. Often there are code areas that are not worth fighting where it really becomes a judgement call by the authority having jurisdiction.
Recently we got tagged for not installing outlets to code in a mud room. The room was 6' wide and 8' long. It had closets on one side and a bench seat on the other. It was really a hall from the outside. The inspection department look at it as a similar room stated in 210.52. I tried arguing it but they felt it was a similar room. I cannot see it. This department is a very good department but I was shocked when they called this. How can a mud room be similar to a bedroom, living room etc. When I said it is really an entry hall they said the plans should have stated hall and they would have been fine.
Oh well, not a biggy but I feel it is ridiculous to enforce receptacles all around that area. They may be reading this too. That's okay- like I said I have a lot of respect for that department
Recently we got tagged for not installing outlets to code in a mud room. The room was 6' wide and 8' long. It had closets on one side and a bench seat on the other. It was really a hall from the outside. The inspection department look at it as a similar room stated in 210.52. I tried arguing it but they felt it was a similar room. I cannot see it. This department is a very good department but I was shocked when they called this. How can a mud room be similar to a bedroom, living room etc. When I said it is really an entry hall they said the plans should have stated hall and they would have been fine.
Oh well, not a biggy but I feel it is ridiculous to enforce receptacles all around that area. They may be reading this too. That's okay- like I said I have a lot of respect for that department
Dennis, From the 'inspector's viewpoint', I've wrestled with the mud rooms myself and don't find it to be clear-cut. Often, to me, it's a case of size matters and I can certainly see it being an AHJ judgement call as that's what it becomes here. (Add to that the effort o treat everyone the same and avoid "you didn't make 'him' put receptacles in" )
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
There is nothing wrong with questioning someone who tells you that you have a violation. First you need to know with relative certainty that you're correct by knowing and understanding the code section in question. If that section is ambiguous, like "nearest the entrance of the service conductors" then ultimately the inspector will get to decide.
Also it depends on the scope of the violation. We recently had an inspector say that radiant heat panels in apartment bathrooms were a violation because they were not rated for wet locations and to get a TCO they needed to be removed. So the GC paid to have them removed. Of course he was incorrect and later on they had to be reinstalled (and paid for again by the GC) when someone at a higher pay grade overruled him. It ended up costs thousands of dollars for a simple mistake and the inspector wouldn't listen to simple reason as to why he was wrong in the first place.
Also it depends on the scope of the violation. We recently had an inspector say that radiant heat panels in apartment bathrooms were a violation because they were not rated for wet locations and to get a TCO they needed to be removed. So the GC paid to have them removed. Of course he was incorrect and later on they had to be reinstalled (and paid for again by the GC) when someone at a higher pay grade overruled him. It ended up costs thousands of dollars for a simple mistake and the inspector wouldn't listen to simple reason as to why he was wrong in the first place.
stevenje
Senior Member
- Location
- Yachats Oregon
Welcome to the Electrical Portion of our show,
where we examine those three little words men find
so hard to say.... "Code reference, please!"
The Red Green Show if I'm not mistaken. That brings back a few memories.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Dennis, From the 'inspector's viewpoint', I've wrestled with the mud rooms myself and don't find it to be clear-cut. Often, to me, it's a case of size matters and I can certainly see it being an AHJ judgement call as that's what it becomes here. (Add to that the effort o treat everyone the same and avoid "you didn't make 'him' put receptacles in" )
Gus the rooms that 210.52 speak about , other than kitchen which has it own rules, are rooms that one lives in. Tell me how an entry area from the outdoors that has a place to sit (bench) to remove boots is a space similar to other rooms. It is similar to a hallway.
One step further, do you require a laundry room to have outlets to code? If not why not? I have wired some large laundry areas and this department I mentiooned does not require outlets in those areas.
If one thinks about the requirement for the 12'/6' rule and understand why it is there then I don't see how an area from the outside that is 8' long and 6' wide would be required to comply. This area has full length cabinets on the right for coats etc which leaves a walk area in front of the 3' wide. On the right is a bench and coat pegs. Sorry I don't think I can ever agree no matter what the plans call it.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Exactly the way it should be, and is in some areas.
Welcome to the Electrical Portion of our show,
where we examine those three little words men find
so hard to say.... "Code reference, please!"
Here if during a walk through they ask something be changed and you don't agree, you both look in the code to find the answer. If you refuse to make the change and they end up writing a formal correction notice - whatever code or rule is being violated must be printed on that correction notice anyway - so it will not be a shirtpocket rule on a formal correction notice. If it is a grey area and subject to interpretation most of the inspectors around here will not give a final decision until speaking with their supervisor or other colleagues.
My company has saved thousands of dollars challenging inspectors interpretation of the NEC. I had a post awhile back that the EI wanted us to install AFCI circuit breakers because a main electrical panel was being converted to a sub panel as part of an addition to a home. It wasn't required because we weren't modify any of the existing branch circuits in that electrical panel. That challenge alone probably saved $2k in unnecessary work. We always go about questioning an inspector in a professional manner. We back up our challenges with facts. Sometimes we prevail other times we don't. It makes no sense to take the inspectors word on everything or not get a permit because your afraid of what an electrical inspector might say.
construct
Senior Member
- Location
- Branson, Missouri
Welcome to the Electrical Portion of our show,
where we examine those three little words men find
so hard to say.... "Code reference, please!"
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
- Location
- Simi Valley, CA
Of course when questioning an inspector, it's probably best not to start with, "I've never been called on that before" or "I just did this in....." Or "where did you come up with that" or "you guys are the only guys that call that". Also when you want to show me you're right don't bring out a 9 year old code book.
The worst time for inspectors is and will be January of this year when the codes change. Remember we have jobs that we're still doing that are in the last code cycle and then we'll have new jobs in the current code cycle and it's even possible that we have jobs from two code cycle's back.
I go to a lot and I mean a lot of training. I pretty much stay up with the codes, that's my job and what I have gotten paid to do for the last 27 years. I can't tell you how many contractors that we talk to that have no idea what code cycle we're on or could even tell you the last time they took a code class.
The worst time for inspectors is and will be January of this year when the codes change. Remember we have jobs that we're still doing that are in the last code cycle and then we'll have new jobs in the current code cycle and it's even possible that we have jobs from two code cycle's back.
I go to a lot and I mean a lot of training. I pretty much stay up with the codes, that's my job and what I have gotten paid to do for the last 27 years. I can't tell you how many contractors that we talk to that have no idea what code cycle we're on or could even tell you the last time they took a code class.
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