Challenging an Electrical Inspector

[ActionDave]

....I go to a lot and I mean a lot of training. I pretty much stay up with the codes, that's my job and what I have gotten paid to do for the last 27 years. I can't tell you how many contractors that we talk to that have no idea what code cycle we're on or could even tell you the last time they took a code class.

I would say you are a rarity on the inspector side. There are a lot of bad electricians and there are a lot of bad inspectors. That is one of the reasons I respect Mr. Holt so much for hosting this forum. It is as good of a source as any for elevating the trade.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I would say you are a rarity on the inspector side. There are a lot of bad electricians and there are a lot of bad inspectors. That is one of the reasons I respect Mr. Holt so much for hosting this forum. It is as good of a source as any for elevating the trade.

I wouldn't even start to disagree with that.:happyno:

 

[norcal]

I don't think the inspectors who frequent this and other forums are problems. :thumbsup: It's the ones who don't really care to participate to expand their & others knowledge that are & that would include electricians too.

 

[Little Bill]

I've only challenged inspectors twice (not counting clearing up some things)

1st: I was hired to replace a fuse panel and add some circuits. Some of the walls were being exposed, most not. Anyway, there were some abandoned circuits that I didn't need to put in the new panel. The conductors for these circuits were running through the walls and not from attic or crawl. I just cut the wires/conductors in the stud cavity beside the panel and left them in the wall. The inspector flagged me for leaving the wires. I told him I didn't find anywhere in the NEC that said I had to remove them (I bid the job and wouldn't get paid to remove wires). I told him the only place I knew of was with communication cables or in the 700 section.
He was insistent that I was wrong and wouldn't pass me unless I removed them. I told him I would if he would show me the code section. He called me back and said he needed to call his supervisor. He called back later and only said "code doesn't address that". He never said anything else, just put my "pass" sticker on later.

2nd: I had a 200A 3R panel that was being used as a service disconnect. I had to replace the panel because the old one was shot. The panel fed (2) subpanels with (2) 100A breakers. The 100A breakers were side by side and on the same stab on the bus. Inspector said I couldn't put them on the same stab as it would overload it.
I gave him the specs showing him the stabs were rated for 200A. He read them, thanked me for showing him, and proceeded to pass the install!

 

[MyCleveland]

I could write on this topic for a few days.
Like others have stated, staying respectful is a good starting place.
Always prep your aurgument and insist on a code reference to back his/her challenge.

In discussion of this issue with Ohio BBS, over 50% of complaints are logged against EI,s.
With that said I have yet to have a customer, Architect or EC, that has ever wanted to challenge an EI even when large $$ are involved.

Not my money, and they all say they are afraid of blow back on this and future jobs.

What I do is after the job is final, I submit a write up to the State.

Blow back indeed, twelve years ago, a plans examiner called multiple customers, and informed them if they ever submitted plans with my seal in the set.....you can finish this from extrapolation.

 

[rudiseldb]

Look guys I've been on the inspection side for 16 years, I worked for a company and I've worked for myself with my own business. I am now the head electrical inspector for the second largest program in Oregon. The biggest and most important thing is showing respect on both sides. I constantly upgrade my skills, I'm a leader, spent 22.5 years in the army....retired 1SG. I instill in my guys we are all professionals. I have no problem backing or overriding all my guys. I remember way back when I went through my apprenticeship in Oregon as we are a licensed state, I had a teacher that said never say your just an electrician....be proud of who you are and what you do. Like it or not tradesmen....we protect life and properties....and protect people from themselves. I'm proud and hope you are too!!!


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[Sierrasparky]

Look guys I've been on the inspection side for 16 years, I worked for a company and I've worked for myself with my own business. I am now the head electrical inspector for the second largest program in Oregon. The biggest and most important thing is showing respect on both sides. I constantly upgrade my skills, I'm a leader, spent 22.5 years in the army....retired 1SG. I instill in my guys we are all professionals. I have no problem backing or overriding all my guys. I remember way back when I went through my apprenticeship in Oregon as we are a licensed state, I had a teacher that said never say your just an electrician....be proud of who you are and what you do. Like it or not tradesmen....we protect life and properties....and protect people from themselves. I'm proud and hope you are too!!!


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Nice!

 

[JFletcher]

Look guys I've been on the inspection side for 16 years, I worked for a company and I've worked for myself with my own business. I am now the head electrical inspector for the second largest program in Oregon. The biggest and most important thing is showing respect on both sides. I constantly upgrade my skills, I'm a leader, spent 22.5 years in the army....retired 1SG. I instill in my guys we are all professionals. I have no problem backing or overriding all my guys. I remember way back when I went through my apprenticeship in Oregon as we are a licensed state, I had a teacher that said never say your just an electrician....be proud of who you are and what you do. Like it or not tradesmen....we protect life and properties....and protect people from themselves. I'm proud and hope you are too!!!


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Hu-rah!!

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Well I am going to write a proposal to exclude mudrooms in art. 210.52(A). Now I have to figure out how to say it...LOL

 

[kwired]

Well I am going to write a proposal to exclude mudrooms in art. 210.52(A). Now I have to figure out how to say it...LOL

Might want to propose a definition of mudroom as well, at least one that could be placed in 210.2 so that it only applies to 210 -though there is already a 210.2 that is not definitions:huh:.

 

[rick5280]

From my Inspector's files

From my Inspector's files

I just went back to my inspector's files from the late 90's, when I was inspecting.

The paper I found stated:

"Arguing with an inspector is like wrestling with a pig in the mud............

After a while, you realize that the pig enjoys it!"

That being said, you should always ask for a code reference.

Rick Miell

 

[chris1971]

I just went back to my inspector's files from the late 90's, when I was inspecting.

The paper I found stated:

"Arguing with an inspector is like wrestling with a pig in the mud............

After a while, you realize that the pig enjoys it!"

That being said, you should always ask for a code reference.

Rick Miell

Most pigs (electrical inspectors) end up at the slaughterhouse.:rotflmao:

 

[rudiseldb]

Hu-rah!!

Thanks troop


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[mtnsparky]

I had to challenged an EI today, made the corrections he wanted, but still don't feel his interpretation is correct.

I failed a final inspection on a home because the inspector said the bathroom 120v GFCI protected receptacle circuits needed to be AFCI protected. He cited 210.12 and said the bathrooms fall under "similar rooms". I completely respect this inspector, and feel he is one of the good guys, but I don't agree with his interpretation here. I take pride in ensuring my work is done right and is code compliant, so failing an inspection is bugging me now. I installed AFCI breakers to please the inspector, but I'm sure most on here would agree this is not required for bathroom receptacles, under the 2014 NEC. I have heard the 2017 NEC might require this. Wish there was a 1-800 number to get interpretations on the NEC.

I didn't like having to install AFCI breakers since this cost me more money and time, but how else are you suppose to deal with something like this? I do respect this inspector, don't agree with him in this case, but ultimately his interpretation trumps mine......and since I deal with him a couple times a month...

 

[infinity]

I had to challenged an EI today, made the corrections he wanted, but still don't feel his interpretation is correct.

I failed a final inspection on a home because the inspector said the bathroom 120v GFCI protected receptacle circuits needed to be AFCI protected. He cited 210.12 and said the bathrooms fall under "similar rooms". I completely respect this inspector, and feel he is one of the good guys, but I don't agree with his interpretation here. I take pride in ensuring my work is done right and is code compliant, so failing an inspection is bugging me now. I installed AFCI breakers to please the inspector, but I'm sure most on here would agree this is not required for bathroom receptacles, under the 2014 NEC. I have heard the 2017 NEC might require this. Wish there was a 1-800 number to get interpretations on the NEC.

I didn't like having to install AFCI breakers since this cost me more money and time, but how else are you suppose to deal with something like this? I do respect this inspector, don't agree with him in this case, but ultimately his interpretation trumps mine......and since I deal with him a couple times a month...

Here's the relevant section. I agree with you that bathrooms are not similar rooms from the list. Libraries (which very few homes have) are on the list so if they wanted the bathroom to be AFCI protected it would be on the list.

210.12(A) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single-phase, 15- and
20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets or devices in-
stalled in dwelling unit kitchens, family rooms, dining
rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms,
sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, laundry ar-
eas, or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by any of
the means described in 210.12(A)(1) through (6):

 

[kwired]

I had to challenged an EI today, made the corrections he wanted, but still don't feel his interpretation is correct.

I failed a final inspection on a home because the inspector said the bathroom 120v GFCI protected receptacle circuits needed to be AFCI protected. He cited 210.12 and said the bathrooms fall under "similar rooms". I completely respect this inspector, and feel he is one of the good guys, but I don't agree with his interpretation here. I take pride in ensuring my work is done right and is code compliant, so failing an inspection is bugging me now. I installed AFCI breakers to please the inspector, but I'm sure most on here would agree this is not required for bathroom receptacles, under the 2014 NEC. I have heard the 2017 NEC might require this. Wish there was a 1-800 number to get interpretations on the NEC.

I didn't like having to install AFCI breakers since this cost me more money and time, but how else are you suppose to deal with something like this? I do respect this inspector, don't agree with him in this case, but ultimately his interpretation trumps mine......and since I deal with him a couple times a month...

Does he have a supervisor you can talk to? If he is a city inspector and worse yet the only one they have, you may have a hard time with this, but if he is not the bottom link in the chain of command... you may be able to take your problem up the chain - and they hopefully straighten him out on this one as well.

 

[RICK NAPIER]

I believe it is an inspector’s responsibility to provide an environment where an electrician feels comfortable to challenge them if not they will do it because the inspector said so and go back to their old method in the next jurisdiction. 99.9% of electricians are trying to do their work code compliant, if they can challenge you and you can demonstrate why it is required they will change from there on. Besides they could be right. I believe I’m very good at what I do and I wouldn’t be if it wasn’t for those people who pointed out my errors through my career. Even if the electrician is obnoxious about it I thank them sincerely if they show me I’m wrong otherwise I would be making the same mistake again and again.

 

[kwired]

I believe it is an inspector’s responsibility to provide an environment where an electrician feels comfortable to challenge them if not they will do it because the inspector said so and go back to their old method in the next jurisdiction. 99.9% of electricians are trying to do their work code compliant, if they can challenge you and you can demonstrate why it is required they will change from there on. Besides they could be right. I believe I’m very good at what I do and I wouldn’t be if it wasn’t for those people who pointed out my errors through my career. Even if the electrician is obnoxious about it I thank them sincerely if they show me I’m wrong otherwise I would be making the same mistake again and again.

Most inspectors are likely trying to do the right thing as well. As in any profession there are those that are incompetent, have an ego, etc. It the person in question is at the top of the chain of command, there isn't as much that can be done if you feel they are wrong about something and if they don't want to hear about what you may have to say. If they are not on the top of the chain, and you have a legitimate concern and are professional about it, you may get some results going up that chain, and all those involved hopefully learn something from that experience.

 

[ggunn]

How many have ever challenged an electrical inspectors interpretation of the NEC? Seems like I've read a lot of threads stating the "electrical inspector told me its a code violation ". It appears a fair amount of people take the electrical inspectors word and don't challenge them on it being accurate or correct. I say ask the electrical inspector for a code reference. Have them back up the statements they are telling you.

I have had discussions (I refrain from calling them "challenges"; that implies an adversarial relationship which I endeavor to avoid) many times with inspection and plan review departments over points of code on which we disagree. My success rate is about 75%, but I judiciously choose the issues to pursue. Some are not worth the effort or the risk to the relationship.

I have one on my plate right now. Wish me luck.

 

[templdl]

I have had discussions (I refrain from calling them "challenges"; that implies an adversarial relationship which I endeavor to avoid) many times with inspection and plan review departments over points of code on which we disagree. My success rate is about 75%, but I judiciously choose the issues to pursue. Some are not worth the effort or the risk to the relationship.

I have one on my plate right now. Wish me luck.

Yes, it is all about picking your battles and not winning the battle and loosing the war. Sort of like biting the hand that feeds you.
You have to look at a long term relationship with someone you have to deal with on a regular basis. If you get them irritated with you are they going to be do picky to cause you grief of every job instead of working with you. If you suspect that a particular installation my be question it may be best to run it past the AJH for their opinion to avoid grief later.
I had a meeting with the head state electrical engineer regarding omissions that my plant had made on the medium voltage switchgear that I supplied. Yes, I was not very happy with my factory ignoring some things that I specifically included in the order entry spec. By being diplomatic with him I was fortunate to be able to negotiate away a few of some issues that we could have been very costly to correct.