CHECK THIS OUT
- Thread starter tstern
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petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Re: CHECK THIS OUT
Attempting to educate DIYers to do things better and safer is not a crime. I do think the information presented ought to be accurate though.
Are you afraid of the competition from hordes of DIYers taking your plum projects away and doing them by themselves? Keep in mind the vast majority of DIY projects are not economical for a contractor to go out and bid on in the first place.
That seems a bit harsh. Under what even remote stretch of the imagination would such a site be illegal?
Attempting to educate DIYers to do things better and safer is not a crime. I do think the information presented ought to be accurate though.
Are you afraid of the competition from hordes of DIYers taking your plum projects away and doing them by themselves? Keep in mind the vast majority of DIY projects are not economical for a contractor to go out and bid on in the first place.
Re: CHECK THIS OUT
My 'plum' projects have nothing to do with do-it-yourselfers,I left the residential theater of operations behind about 20 years ago.I don't know about your area but in West Tennessee it is illegal to wire your own spa,garage,storage shed etc.I am first and foremost concerned for the safety of the customer,consumer (or as you may call them,DIY's) and the electrician in the field,that's all.Electricity is dangerous if not installed by qualified personnel.I wonder what kind of liability TP carries?Your choice of words,calling this work 'plum projects' makes me think you have never been in the field,you don't know what a 'plum project' is!!
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: CHECK THIS OUT
Gentle folks,
With humble respect for both Bryan and Charlie, I wish to point out that even our words get us into a confusion.
Bryan and Charlie, I believe this is what you meant with what you wrote. The turn of language I suggest brings the attention of the DIYer and other readers to the quality of the connection, not so much to whether a conductor is good or not.
Gentle folks,
With humble respect for both Bryan and Charlie, I wish to point out that even our words get us into a confusion.
The Earth really is a good conductor. . .it's the connection of a premises grounding electrode to the Earth (and I am deliberately using capital "E" on Earth here) that is the problem for <600 V systems. The NEC approved methods of connecting to Earth most commonly at single family dwellings have resistant one to two orders of magnitude greater than the resistance of the grounded service conductor. Ohms law will show almost all of the current, fault or unbalance, travelling elsewhere, that is, not in the Earth.
Bryan and Charlie, I believe this is what you meant with what you wrote. The turn of language I suggest brings the attention of the DIYer and other readers to the quality of the connection, not so much to whether a conductor is good or not.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Re: CHECK THIS OUT
Of course electricity is dangerous. so is driving a car. in most cases education is the best way to reduce the danger.
It's not really relevent that the ECs in a certain area of the country scammed the local communities into making it illegal for some poor slob to replace a 30 cent outlet in his own garage.
All this kind of thing does is drive the DIYer to hiding what he is up to so it never gets inspected, which makes it even more likely to be dangerous because no one else will ever see it.
In case you have not yet figured it out, the "plum projects" comment was an attempt at humor. Perhaps you should lighten up.
As for my field experience, if you had checked you would see my profile says I am an engineer. Most of my field expereince in this area is going out and fixing stuff that should have been done right in the first place by the EC that put it in. I have seen some "interesting" things done by fully licensed ECs, as have you if you are willing to be honest about it.
While I think the web site owner is attempting to do a service to the average DIYer, I think it is a disservce to use poorly constructed or just plain wrong explanations. In doing so he no doubt creates some liability to himself that he never intneded when he set out to try and help the DIYer.
I am not one who believes you can learn all there is to know about being a good electrician from reading the instructions that came with the replacement light switch you bought. But I am not convinced that it requires an IBEW journeyman at $60/hour to come out and replace a 30 cent switch.
Somewhere there is a happy middle ground. I'm not sure where it is, but driving people underground is not the answer. And once you think about it, you know thats true.
Of course electricity is dangerous. so is driving a car. in most cases education is the best way to reduce the danger.
It's not really relevent that the ECs in a certain area of the country scammed the local communities into making it illegal for some poor slob to replace a 30 cent outlet in his own garage.
All this kind of thing does is drive the DIYer to hiding what he is up to so it never gets inspected, which makes it even more likely to be dangerous because no one else will ever see it.
In case you have not yet figured it out, the "plum projects" comment was an attempt at humor. Perhaps you should lighten up.
As for my field experience, if you had checked you would see my profile says I am an engineer. Most of my field expereince in this area is going out and fixing stuff that should have been done right in the first place by the EC that put it in. I have seen some "interesting" things done by fully licensed ECs, as have you if you are willing to be honest about it.
While I think the web site owner is attempting to do a service to the average DIYer, I think it is a disservce to use poorly constructed or just plain wrong explanations. In doing so he no doubt creates some liability to himself that he never intneded when he set out to try and help the DIYer.
I am not one who believes you can learn all there is to know about being a good electrician from reading the instructions that came with the replacement light switch you bought. But I am not convinced that it requires an IBEW journeyman at $60/hour to come out and replace a 30 cent switch.
Somewhere there is a happy middle ground. I'm not sure where it is, but driving people underground is not the answer. And once you think about it, you know thats true.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: CHECK THIS OUT
The situation with changing out the "simple" switch or receptacle is it may not be so simple.
Most switches and receptacles are relatively simple - then again lets remember that quick Sunday call before the game when you get called out to change a quick switch and you open the box and ............... what a mess.
The situation with changing out the "simple" switch or receptacle is it may not be so simple.
Most switches and receptacles are relatively simple - then again lets remember that quick Sunday call before the game when you get called out to change a quick switch and you open the box and ............... what a mess.
Re: CHECK THIS OUT
Quote,petersona:
It's not really relevent that the ECs in a certain area of the country scammed the local communities into making it illegal for some poor slob to replace a 30 cent outlet in his own garage.
Apparently you did not peruse the web site thoroughly.This guy is not only teaching people to change switches and receptacles.And you are also misinformed about the E.C.'s 'scamming' this or any other part of the country,the E.C.'s lobby for less licensing,enforcement and mandatory education in the industry it keeps their overhead down.Code Enforcement is what you should have said,they like to protect their territory,hard for them to collect permit fees if homeowners are doing their own work.
Quote,petersona:
All this kind of thing does is drive the DIYer to hiding what he is up to so it never gets inspected, which makes it even more likely to be dangerous because no one else will ever see it.
I completely agree,but they take that upon themself.No on should be telling them how easy this is to do.
Quote,petersona:
In case you have not yet figured it out, the "plum projects" comment was an attempt at humor. Perhaps you should lighten up.
Perhaps I should lighten up,but safety is something I will not compromise on.I apologize if I mistook your attempt at humor,that leads me to believe you have never been on the job and seen a dead body carried out because someone took safety for granted.I have three times in 25 years,once it was three dead bodies.
Quote,petersona:
As for my field experience, if you had checked you would see my profile says I am an engineer. Most of my field expereince in this area is going out and fixing stuff that should have been done right in the first place by the EC that put it in. I have seen some "interesting" things done by fully licensed ECs, as have you if you are willing to be honest about it.
I actually fix more engineer's mistakes than E.C.'s or J.W.'s.I get prints on every job that have things on them against the NEC.It costs my boss a lot of money because I have to write up change orders because Code Enforcement requires us to wire prints per the engineer.It takes four years to become an E.E.,it takes at least 10 to become a good Journeyman Electrician.The only engineers I have ever met that were worth their salt were working for Chrysler,G.M.,Ford or TVA,and they had LOTS of respect for a good J.W.Not saying that those are the only places with good engineers,just the only ones I've personally met.There are some engineers on this web site that are knowledgeable of the NEC,that in itself is rare in my personal experience.Some engineers on this site realize how valuable a good J.W. is,I see several that think doing this is easy and they are above the men and women that put this work in.
Quote,petersona:
While I think the web site owner is attempting to do a service to the average DIYer, I think it is a disservce to use poorly constructed or just plain wrong explanations. In doing so he no doubt creates some liability to himself that he never intneded when he set out to try and help the DIYer.
Agreed.
Quote,petersona:
I am not one who believes you can learn all there is to know about being a good electrician from reading the instructions that came with the replacement light switch you bought. But I am not convinced that it requires an IBEW journeyman at $60/hour to come out and replace a 30 cent switch.
The IBEW does little residential work outside of the large cities,New York,Chicago and perhaps Los Angeles.This guy is taking NO work from the IBEW,if you knew much about this industry you would know that.You would not be allowed,by the way,to go out and fix a mistake on a Union job,you should know that.You would not be allowed to carry a screwdriver on most Union jobs.
Quote,petersona:
Somewhere there is a happy middle ground. I'm not sure where it is, but driving people underground is not the answer. And once you think about it, you know thats true.
I think only electricians should be allowed to do electrical work.Hopefully TP will not give advice ($3.99 per minute over the phone,in case you missed that part) to someone who misunderstands him and kills their self wiring their own spa.Again,I am only concerned with safety,he isn't taking a dime out of my pocket,never will.
Quote,petersona:
It's not really relevent that the ECs in a certain area of the country scammed the local communities into making it illegal for some poor slob to replace a 30 cent outlet in his own garage.
Apparently you did not peruse the web site thoroughly.This guy is not only teaching people to change switches and receptacles.And you are also misinformed about the E.C.'s 'scamming' this or any other part of the country,the E.C.'s lobby for less licensing,enforcement and mandatory education in the industry it keeps their overhead down.Code Enforcement is what you should have said,they like to protect their territory,hard for them to collect permit fees if homeowners are doing their own work.
Quote,petersona:
All this kind of thing does is drive the DIYer to hiding what he is up to so it never gets inspected, which makes it even more likely to be dangerous because no one else will ever see it.
I completely agree,but they take that upon themself.No on should be telling them how easy this is to do.
Quote,petersona:
In case you have not yet figured it out, the "plum projects" comment was an attempt at humor. Perhaps you should lighten up.
Perhaps I should lighten up,but safety is something I will not compromise on.I apologize if I mistook your attempt at humor,that leads me to believe you have never been on the job and seen a dead body carried out because someone took safety for granted.I have three times in 25 years,once it was three dead bodies.
Quote,petersona:
As for my field experience, if you had checked you would see my profile says I am an engineer. Most of my field expereince in this area is going out and fixing stuff that should have been done right in the first place by the EC that put it in. I have seen some "interesting" things done by fully licensed ECs, as have you if you are willing to be honest about it.
I actually fix more engineer's mistakes than E.C.'s or J.W.'s.I get prints on every job that have things on them against the NEC.It costs my boss a lot of money because I have to write up change orders because Code Enforcement requires us to wire prints per the engineer.It takes four years to become an E.E.,it takes at least 10 to become a good Journeyman Electrician.The only engineers I have ever met that were worth their salt were working for Chrysler,G.M.,Ford or TVA,and they had LOTS of respect for a good J.W.Not saying that those are the only places with good engineers,just the only ones I've personally met.There are some engineers on this web site that are knowledgeable of the NEC,that in itself is rare in my personal experience.Some engineers on this site realize how valuable a good J.W. is,I see several that think doing this is easy and they are above the men and women that put this work in.
Quote,petersona:
While I think the web site owner is attempting to do a service to the average DIYer, I think it is a disservce to use poorly constructed or just plain wrong explanations. In doing so he no doubt creates some liability to himself that he never intneded when he set out to try and help the DIYer.
Agreed.
Quote,petersona:
I am not one who believes you can learn all there is to know about being a good electrician from reading the instructions that came with the replacement light switch you bought. But I am not convinced that it requires an IBEW journeyman at $60/hour to come out and replace a 30 cent switch.
The IBEW does little residential work outside of the large cities,New York,Chicago and perhaps Los Angeles.This guy is taking NO work from the IBEW,if you knew much about this industry you would know that.You would not be allowed,by the way,to go out and fix a mistake on a Union job,you should know that.You would not be allowed to carry a screwdriver on most Union jobs.
Quote,petersona:
Somewhere there is a happy middle ground. I'm not sure where it is, but driving people underground is not the answer. And once you think about it, you know thats true.
I think only electricians should be allowed to do electrical work.Hopefully TP will not give advice ($3.99 per minute over the phone,in case you missed that part) to someone who misunderstands him and kills their self wiring their own spa.Again,I am only concerned with safety,he isn't taking a dime out of my pocket,never will.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: CHECK THIS OUT
Originally posted by shawn474:
I completely agree,but they take that upon themself.No on should be telling them how easy this is to do.
Does anybody else see something weird about this statement? If it's so easy, why call a professional to swap a switch?
...that leads me to believe you have never been on the job and seen a dead body carried out because someone took safety for granted.I have three times in 25 years,once it was three dead bodies.
Man, you are jinxed. (Forgive my morbid sense of humor.)
I actually fix more engineer's mistakes than E.C.'s or J.W.'s.I get prints on every job that have things on them against the NEC.It costs my boss a lot of money because I have to write up change orders because Code Enforcement requires us to wire prints per the engineer.
There was one perfect person, and he was executed. I'll stick to making mistakes. I'm in pretty good company.
It takes four years to become an E.E.,it takes at least 10 to become a good Journeyman Electrician.
Of course, engineers are universally considered perfect when they receive their degree, but a journeyman carries an "I Still Kinda Suck" license for six years.
[ February 08, 2005, 12:39 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
karl riley
Senior Member
Re: CHECK THIS OUT
I think tp can learn a lot if he re-reads the posts here. It is hard to learn when you are used to being a teacher. Concepts in the brain become realities. The biggest fuzziest concept out there is called "ground".
Charlie, being a utility guy you are familiar with SWER systems, where the earth carries the entire primary return current from distant spots in remote areas. There is no neutral conductor, only one hot. They can do this only by using enough grounding electrodes at the distant transformer to get the resistance down to where enough current can flow back.
It is not the earth that has the high resistance, but the surface between electrode and soil. Once current is in earth the huge cross section of the return channel overwhelms the resistance of the soil itself. Right?
So I don't think we can say the earth has high resistance. The path from the neutral bussbar by way of the earth back to the transformer is high, but the resistance is not in the earth but in the electrode/soil boundary. Agree??
Karl
I think tp can learn a lot if he re-reads the posts here. It is hard to learn when you are used to being a teacher. Concepts in the brain become realities. The biggest fuzziest concept out there is called "ground".
Charlie, being a utility guy you are familiar with SWER systems, where the earth carries the entire primary return current from distant spots in remote areas. There is no neutral conductor, only one hot. They can do this only by using enough grounding electrodes at the distant transformer to get the resistance down to where enough current can flow back.
It is not the earth that has the high resistance, but the surface between electrode and soil. Once current is in earth the huge cross section of the return channel overwhelms the resistance of the soil itself. Right?
So I don't think we can say the earth has high resistance. The path from the neutral bussbar by way of the earth back to the transformer is high, but the resistance is not in the earth but in the electrode/soil boundary. Agree??
Karl
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Re: CHECK THIS OUT
Thats quite true. I was once stopped by a union stewart who was concerned that the screwdriver in my pocket protector meant I might be doing some "work" in his plant. He did not seem all that concerned about safety though, but did give me a stern lecture about taking work away from good union men.
I did not look at the web site all that long. I did not catch his 900 number service. I am amazed his insurance company would allow that. It seems like a tiny amount of income for the huge liability it could create.
Re: CHECK THIS OUT
Originally posted by petersonra:
Thats quite true. I was once stopped by a union stewart who was concerned that the screwdriver in my pocket protector meant I might be doing some "work" in his plant. He did not seem all that concerned about safety though, but did give me a stern lecture about taking work away from good union men.
Yes,I know many like that Bob and I must be honest - I don't like it,and I don't like that mindset.It is one of the many things that gives the IBEW (and Unions in general) a bad name.I can't apoligize for another man but I can say I'm sorry you had that experience.Many of us have good intentions though.With me,it is all about getting the job done,getting it done right,making the customer happy and making sure everyone makes it home (or back to the motel ) every night.
I did not look at the web site all that long. I did not catch his 900 number service. I am amazed his insurance company would allow that. It seems like a tiny amount of income for the huge liability it could create.
Yes I think the liability issue amazing in this case,but I have often wondered how Home Depot could give classes,or seminars whatever they call them on electrical work.I don't know what all they really cover though,never been to one.Good discussion Bob and I must say you showed great restraint in not rising to my needling - you must be a dad! Have a good evening,Sir.
-Shawn
Originally posted by petersonra:
Thats quite true. I was once stopped by a union stewart who was concerned that the screwdriver in my pocket protector meant I might be doing some "work" in his plant. He did not seem all that concerned about safety though, but did give me a stern lecture about taking work away from good union men.
Yes,I know many like that Bob and I must be honest - I don't like it,and I don't like that mindset.It is one of the many things that gives the IBEW (and Unions in general) a bad name.I can't apoligize for another man but I can say I'm sorry you had that experience.Many of us have good intentions though.With me,it is all about getting the job done,getting it done right,making the customer happy and making sure everyone makes it home (or back to the motel
) every night.I did not look at the web site all that long. I did not catch his 900 number service. I am amazed his insurance company would allow that. It seems like a tiny amount of income for the huge liability it could create.
Yes I think the liability issue amazing in this case,but I have often wondered how Home Depot could give classes,or seminars whatever they call them on electrical work.I don't know what all they really cover though,never been to one.Good discussion Bob and I must say you showed great restraint in not rising to my needling - you must be a dad!
Have a good evening,Sir.-Shawn
Re: CHECK THIS OUT
Originally posted by shawn474:
I completely agree,but they take that upon themself.No on should be telling them how easy this is to do.
posted by georgestolz:
Does anybody else see something weird about this statement? If it's so easy, why call a professional to swap a switch?
I guess everyone else who was reading understood what I was trying to say,even though my statement is quoted out of context - no one should be telling people electrical work is easy to do.Falling off a cliff is easy too.
Originally posted by shawn474:
...that leads me to believe you have never been on the job and seen a dead body carried out because someone took safety for granted.I have three times in 25 years,once it was three dead bodies.
posted by georgestolz:
Man, you are jinxed. (Forgive my morbid sense of humor.)
No I will not forgive that asinine statement,it is very rude and disrespectful to the many construction workers who are killed on the job every year.(and their families) If you ever get the experience that it requires,you might get out of those houses you're wiring and get to the commercial and/or industrial area of this trade.I've been on jobs that had over 500 electricians alone,when you factor in the iron workers,millwrights,pipe fitters,etc. there are sometimes 2 or 3 THOUSAND construction workers on some of these jobs.All it takes is one person to slip up and people die.A lot of electricians with 20+ years working big industrial jobs have seen fatalities.You simply don't get the kind of experience as a residential wireman to understand what I'm talking about,I'm sure commercial and industrial electricians and the engineers understand.
Originally posted by shawn474:
I actually fix more engineer's mistakes than E.C.'s or J.W.'s.I get prints on every job that have things on them against the NEC.It costs my boss a lot of money because I have to write up change orders because Code Enforcement requires us to wire prints per the engineer.
posted by georgestolz:
There was one perfect person, and he was executed. I'll stick to making mistakes. I'm in pretty good company.
Originally posted by shawn474:
It takes four years to become an E.E.,it takes at least 10 to become a good Journeyman Electrician.
posted by georgestolz:
Of course, engineers are universally considered perfect when they receive their degree, but a journeyman carries an "I Still Kinda Suck" license for six years.
Yeah people getting killed is real funny George.
:roll:
Originally posted by shawn474:
I completely agree,but they take that upon themself.No on should be telling them how easy this is to do.
posted by georgestolz:
Does anybody else see something weird about this statement? If it's so easy, why call a professional to swap a switch?
I guess everyone else who was reading understood what I was trying to say,even though my statement is quoted out of context - no one should be telling people electrical work is easy to do.Falling off a cliff is easy too.
Originally posted by shawn474:
...that leads me to believe you have never been on the job and seen a dead body carried out because someone took safety for granted.I have three times in 25 years,once it was three dead bodies.
posted by georgestolz:
Man, you are jinxed. (Forgive my morbid sense of humor.)
No I will not forgive that asinine statement,it is very rude and disrespectful to the many construction workers who are killed on the job every year.(and their families) If you ever get the experience that it requires,you might get out of those houses you're wiring and get to the commercial and/or industrial area of this trade.I've been on jobs that had over 500 electricians alone,when you factor in the iron workers,millwrights,pipe fitters,etc. there are sometimes 2 or 3 THOUSAND construction workers on some of these jobs.All it takes is one person to slip up and people die.A lot of electricians with 20+ years working big industrial jobs have seen fatalities.You simply don't get the kind of experience as a residential wireman to understand what I'm talking about,I'm sure commercial and industrial electricians and the engineers understand.
Originally posted by shawn474:
I actually fix more engineer's mistakes than E.C.'s or J.W.'s.I get prints on every job that have things on them against the NEC.It costs my boss a lot of money because I have to write up change orders because Code Enforcement requires us to wire prints per the engineer.
posted by georgestolz:
There was one perfect person, and he was executed. I'll stick to making mistakes. I'm in pretty good company.
Originally posted by shawn474:
It takes four years to become an E.E.,it takes at least 10 to become a good Journeyman Electrician.
posted by georgestolz:
Of course, engineers are universally considered perfect when they receive their degree, but a journeyman carries an "I Still Kinda Suck" license for six years.
Yeah people getting killed is real funny George.
:roll:
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: CHECK THIS OUT
Oh no...the engineer has a pocket screwdriver he is taking 'our' work.
Give me a break. :roll:
[ February 19, 2005, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
This type of thing is exactly why I will never join the union.
Oh no...the engineer has a pocket screwdriver he is taking 'our' work.
Give me a break. :roll:
[ February 19, 2005, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Re: CHECK THIS OUT
No. No kids here. I do have a very nice beagle though who thinks she is the boss of me, and can be very vocal about it at times.Originally posted by shawn474:
Originally posted by petersonra:
Good discussion Bob and I must say you showed great restraint in not rising to my needling - you must be a dad!
-Shawn
Re: CHECK THIS OUT
Bob,It is infact one of their duties.And you can't fault a man for doing his job,and doing it well,now can we.-(example)-Being a Stewart,or a Electrical Inspector,or someone in the Home Inspection Service Industry.Which,I do know you seem to support,but where I don't understand all of the training required,and what is involved in that Industry,so I do reserved comment on.I may not know,understand or even agree with their roll.But in would be, infact from not understanding the background that is required..This (Stewart) did perform his job.He explained the parameters,in his position of..
I believe,that was my statement.
Mr. iwire sir,Originally posted by iwire:
This type of thing is exactly why I will never join the union.
Oh no...the engineer has a pocket screwdriver he is taking 'our' work.
Give me a break. :roll: [/QB]
Bob,It is infact one of their duties.And you can't fault a man for doing his job,and doing it well,now can we.-(example)-Being a Stewart,or a Electrical Inspector,or someone in the Home Inspection Service Industry.Which,I do know you seem to support,but where I don't understand all of the training required,and what is involved in that Industry,so I do reserved comment on.I may not know,understand or even agree with their roll.But in would be, infact from not understanding the background that is required..This (Stewart) did perform his job.He explained the parameters,in his position of..
I believe,that was my statement.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Re: CHECK THIS OUT
No - I actually fault the morons that run the companies that allow this kind of silliness.
I don't see how an engineer walking around with a tiny screwdriver in his pocket protector is either a safety hazard or taking work away from union men.
Why companies are stupid enough to pay for union stewards to do this is beyond me.
No - I actually fault the morons that run the companies that allow this kind of silliness.
I don't see how an engineer walking around with a tiny screwdriver in his pocket protector is either a safety hazard or taking work away from union men.
Why companies are stupid enough to pay for union stewards to do this is beyond me.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: CHECK THIS OUT
Guys, moving into the union vs nonunion is not productive. Lets not spend any more time on that issue. Thanks.
Don
Guys, moving into the union vs nonunion is not productive. Lets not spend any more time on that issue. Thanks.
Don
- Status