Circuit Breaker teardown and defective Siemens latching mechanism

[mbrooke]

The 30A GFCI breakers use AWG 10 wire to the sockets. The 60A GFCI breakers use AWG 6 to the subpanel. It is the main panel. The electrician and even some engineers didn't suggest 20 space Siemens load center last year as we were not even sure it could work, so settled for the 12 space (6 breakers only). I mean, what if it would nuisance trip on the fridge, air conditioning units, others. Fortunately it has zero nuisance tripping, unlike the GFCI receptacles which can trip on the fridge twice a day for example.

Technically this is a code violation- 15amp sockets can not be on a circuit larger then 20amps. Technically- but if its custom throughout the Philippines it is what it is.

US breakers can trip when overcurrent reaches 20X. What brands or categories are 20X and which is 10X? And did you mean in the B type MCBs. It can trip just 5x overcurrent? Then it is better. For main breaker (or backup disconnect) in residential, do you think B type MCBs is better? or would it nuisance trip on the fridge, washing machine, water pump, etc.? What is the minimum magnetic pickup for residential?
​

Most older single pole breakers had a very high magnetic trip value well exceeding 20x with some having no magnetic trip at all. In the late 80s US manufactures started lowering the magnetic trip value on single pole breakers sold in the US. Today the pickup usually starts around 10x for single poles, but double poles are often around 20x.


Regarding the IEC Type B is around 3-5X, C is 5-10X and D is 10-20X.

https://library.e.abb.com/public/114371fcc8e0456096db42d614bead67/2CDC400002D0201_view.pdf


Having a breaker trip magnetically during a fault reduces the incident energy at the short circuit point and in the IEC its used to acheive disconnection time requirements.


At the same time you need to consider appliance inrush. In Europe type B MCBs do well on general use 230 volt socket circuits; but for things like motors, ballasts, transformers and other large appliances type C is used. You could also do D if you really wanted to make sure the food in your fridge doesn't go bad.


In the end B, C or D is not relevant- as long as a short circuit at the furthest point in the fixed wiring is capable of tripping the breaker magnetically you are fine in the eyes of the IEC.

Under the NEC however disconnection times are not mandated, mostly because at 120 volts L-G the need is less so in that a person will only encounter 60 volts on the frame of an appliance during a short circuit vs 115 volts.


During a short circuit the voltage on average divides evenly between the hot wire and ground wire, with the fault point being the midway mark.

 

[tersh]

Technically this is a code violation- 15amp sockets can not be on a circuit larger then 20amps. Technically- but if its custom throughout the Philippines it is what it is.

In old houses in the Philippines where breakers were put without following the electrical plans and no inspections of any kind. All the breakers are 30A and all wires at AWG 10, even to the sockets and to a single room light in one 30A breaker.

But since the load of most people are only less than 5A mostly, then it can't exceed 15A. Of course if 15A is exceeded and the wire used and breaker used is 30A, the outlets can burn.

In commercial buildings. We are more strict as the loads are more. Anyway. We have 20A socket, what is the maximum socket amperage you have in the US?

Most older single pole breakers had a very high magnetic trip value well exceeding 20x with some having no magnetic trip at all. In the late 80s US manufactures started lowering the magnetic trip value on single pole breakers sold in the US. Today the pickup usually starts around 10x for single poles, but double poles are often around 20x.


Regarding the IEC Type B is around 3-5X, C is 5-10X and D is 10-20X.

https://library.e.abb.com/public/114371fcc8e0456096db42d614bead67/2CDC400002D0201_view.pdf


Having a breaker trip magnetically during a fault reduces the incident energy at the short circuit point and in the IEC its used to acheive disconnection time requirements.


At the same time you need to consider appliance inrush. In Europe type B MCBs do well on general use 230 volt socket circuits; but for things like motors, ballasts, transformers and other large appliances type C is used. You could also do D if you really wanted to make sure the food in your fridge doesn't go bad.


In the end B, C or D is not relevant- as long as a short circuit at the furthest point in the fixed wiring is capable of tripping the breaker magnetically you are fine in the eyes of the IEC.

Under the NEC however disconnection times are not mandated, mostly because at 120 volts L-G the need is less so in that a person will only encounter 60 volts on the frame of an appliance during a short circuit vs 115 volts.


During a short circuit the voltage on average divides evenly between the hot wire and ground wire, with the fault point being the midway mark.

In our country where plug in, bolt on panels were mostly used years ago. Now we have mostly small din rail breakers used in new condominium and houses. In the following I just took in the store display. What is the amp frame of either and MCB type. Where are they written?

What years in the US when it's like in the Philippines where plans were not being followed in houses and no inspections of any kinds.

The ones affected are mostly the poor living in wooden houses. When one house burns, thousand of houses burn together. We don't have the political will, budget, and wide knowledge to make house inspection mandatory. Commercial building Inspectors are so poor they are making about $10 a day. And so they always accept $20 bribe so even in commercial buildings, the specs are not followed because of cost cutting by contractors.

 

[mbrooke]

In old houses in the Philippines where breakers were put without following the electrical plans and no inspections of any kind. All the breakers are 30A and all wires at AWG 10, even to the sockets and to a single room light in one 30A breaker.

Understandable- fortunately the most important aspect has been followed in that the wire gauge matches the breaker, so you are good.

But since the load of most people are only less than 5A mostly, then it can't exceed 15A. Of course if 15A is exceeded and the wire used and breaker used is 30A, the outlets can burn.

But what if the cord short circuits? In the UK where the circuits are 32amps, fuses are put in the plugs.

In commercial buildings. We are more strict as the loads are more. Anyway. We have 20A socket, what is the maximum socket amperage you have in the US?

Maximum NEMA straight blade is 60amps in the US. There are pin and sleeve

In our country where plug in, bolt on panels were mostly used years ago. Now we have mostly small din rail breakers used in new condominium and houses. In the following I just took in the store display. What is the amp frame of either and MCB type. Where are they written?

The one on the left is 100amp, the one on the right is 16 amp. It is next to the "C", the "C" means that it is a C trip curve.

What years in the US when it's like in the Philippines where plans were not being followed in houses and no inspections of any kinds.

The ones affected are mostly the poor living in wooden houses. When one house burns, thousand of houses burn together. We don't have the political will, budget, and wide knowledge to make house inspection mandatory. Commercial building Inspectors are so poor they are making about $10 a day. And so they always accept $20 bribe so even in commercial buildings, the specs are not followed because of cost cutting by contractors.

IMO, greater concern lies in educating the people of the country. You would think the US has wiring that gets regular inspections, but truth is DIYs are constantly adding and upgrading in their homes without permits and homes never see any type of electrical inspection other then a rudimentary "home inspection" when the house is being sold. Some of the work is good, others down right scary. What makes the difference is when the person doing it cares and understands.

 

[tersh]

Understandable- fortunately the most important aspect has been followed in that the wire gauge matches the breaker, so you are good.




But what if the cord short circuits? In the UK where the circuits are 32amps, fuses are put in the plugs.

If the breaker is 30A, the wire is AWG 10, the socket is 15A, if the AWG 18 cord short circuits, it should trip the 30A breaker, isn't it?

Maximum NEMA straight blade is 60amps in the US. There are pin and sleeve














The one on the left is 100amp, the one on the right is 16 amp. It is next to the "C", the "C" means that it is a C trip curve.

There is a difference between amp trip and amp frame. The 100A and 16A is the amp trip. What is the amp frame? Earlier you mentioned to look at "amp frame" which is not the actual tripping amp, but the frame amperage only.

IMO, greater concern lies in educating the people of the country. You would think the US has wiring that gets regular inspections, but truth is DIYs are constantly adding and upgrading in their homes without permits and homes never see any type of electrical inspection other then a rudimentary "home inspection" when the house is being sold. Some of the work is good, others down right scary. What makes the difference is when the person doing it cares and understands.

In the Philippines, we don't have any DIY because hiring electrician only costs $10 a day, at most $20. So no owners would do it themselves unless they are engineers with electricians and other engineers backup.

 

[mbrooke]

If the breaker is 30A, the wire is AWG 10, the socket is 15A, if the AWG 18 cord short circuits, it should trip the 30A breaker, isn't it?

No grantee. 18 awg and a 30amp OCPD- thats pushing it.

There is a difference between amp trip and amp frame. The 100A and 16A is the amp trip. What is the amp frame? Earlier you mentioned to look at "amp frame" which is not the actual tripping amp, but the frame amperage only.

Amp frame would technically be 125 amps as I think that is the largest size you can get in the 1 inch format. Amp trip and amp frame applies more to switch gear - here you would just call them DIN MCBs.

In the Philippines, we don't have any DIY because hiring electrician only costs $10 a day, at most $20. So no owners would do it themselves unless they are engineers with electricians and other engineers backup.

I see.

 

[tersh]

No grantee. 18 awg and a 30amp OCPD- thats pushing it.

18 AWG at 75C is listed at 14A. When it is shorted. The current can reach 20 times at 280A? It can trip the 30A. But I think the 20 times is the tripping of the breaker. So when an 18 AWG wire gets shorted.. what is the maximum current it can still carry and trip the breaker?


Btw.. I have a *separate* question about the 83% rule. In the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLIHEiiY_Rs

The point is conductors can be used that is 83% of the supposed size compared to service conductor.

But in the above example. What if the residential houses have so many guests and the wire amperage reach 190A. Then since the breaker is still 200A, and the wire is only rated at 175C (or 83%). Then the wire can burn before the breaker trips. So isn't the 83% kinda dangerous for those with many guests? The philosophy is the breaker should protect the wire. But in this case. It can't anymore.

Amp frame would technically be 125 amps as I think that is the largest size you can get in the 1 inch format. Amp trip and amp frame applies more to switch gear - here you would just call them DIN MCBs.




I see.

 

[mbrooke]

18 AWG at 75C is listed at 14A. When it is shorted. The current can reach 20 times at 280A? It can trip the 30A. But I think the 20 times is the tripping of the breaker. So when an 18 AWG wire gets shorted.. what is the maximum current it can still carry and trip the breaker?

There is no guarantee it will trip fast enough to prevent overheating of the wire.


But I do have some assuring experience. 10 years ago I forgot to set my Fluke 75 leads back to voltage. I kept blowing those internal fuses so I just jumped them out with copper wire- I know not the right thing to do. I had to test a 30amp dryer outlet to make sure it was ok- only to stick my leads in and get a loud POW and a bit of smoke from my Fluke. Breaker tripped, took a chunk out of one of the probes, but the leads did not melt let alone get hot. So having 18awg cords on a 30amp circuit may not be all that bad.

Btw.. I have a *separate* question about the 83% rule. In the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLIHEiiY_Rs

The point is conductors can be used that is 83% of the supposed size compared to service conductor.

But in the above example. What if the residential houses have so many guests and the wire amperage reach 190A. Then since the breaker is still 200A, and the wire is only rated at 175C (or 83%). Then the wire can burn before the breaker trips. So isn't the 83% kinda dangerous for those with many guests? The philosophy is the breaker should protect the wire. But in this case. It can't anymore.

Well, here is the truth: Services when sized to the NEC's rules are often 2 to 3 times larger then they need to be. The odds of a residential service built to code approaching its rating is slim, and even it it did, the load is so cyclic that it wouldn't be for long.


But- imagining a worse case scenario where someone loaded a 4/0AL service to 200amps continuously or a 4awg cu service to 100amps continuously: nothing would happen. If you look at the 90*C column in Table 310.15 B 16, and then service entrance conductors adjust at 83%, the current values are identical or within 5 amps. In fact when I started reading the code for the first time I made the assumption that the NEC simply based table 310.15 B 7 off the 90*C column and then adjusting that number to the next largest available main breaker rating. Honestly to this day part of me still believes that to be the case- I've raised a few eye brows on here claiming that to be so, but hey, prove me otherwise.


Now, service conductors running down siding and out the meter into a basement panel are not in contact with insulation for any considerable length- so #4 at 100amps will not reach 90*C let alone 60*C.

 

[hbiss]

What if the residential houses have so many guests and the wire amperage reach 190A. Then since the breaker is still 200A, and the wire is only rated at 175C (or 83%). Then the wire can burn before the breaker trips. So isn't the 83% kinda dangerous for those with many guests?

Read that back to yourself and tell me how ridiculous that sounds.

-Hal

 

[tersh]

Read that back to yourself and tell me how ridiculous that sounds.

-Hal

I mean 175A at 75C. Lol.

 

[tersh]

There is no guarantee it will trip fast enough to prevent overheating of the wire.


But I do have some assuring experience. 10 years ago I forgot to set my Fluke 75 leads back to voltage. I kept blowing those internal fuses so I just jumped them out with copper wire- I know not the right thing to do. I had to test a 30amp dryer outlet to make sure it was ok- only to stick my leads in and get a loud POW and a bit of smoke from my Fluke. Breaker tripped, took a chunk out of one of the probes, but the leads did not melt let alone get hot. So having 18awg cords on a 30amp circuit may not be all that bad.









Well, here is the truth: Services when sized to the NEC's rules are often 2 to 3 times larger then they need to be. The odds of a residential service built to code approaching its rating is slim, and even it it did, the load is so cyclic that it wouldn't be for long.


But- imagining a worse case scenario where someone loaded a 4/0AL service to 200amps continuously or a 4awg cu service to 100amps continuously: nothing would happen. If you look at the 90*C column in Table 310.15 B 16, and then service entrance conductors adjust at 83%, the current values are identical or within 5 amps. In fact when I started reading the code for the first time I made the assumption that the NEC simply based table 310.15 B 7 off the 90*C column and then adjusting that number to the next largest available main breaker rating. Honestly to this day part of me still believes that to be the case- I've raised a few eye brows on here claiming that to be so, but hey, prove me otherwise.


Now, service conductors running down siding and out the meter into a basement panel are not in contact with insulation for any considerable length- so #4 at 100amps will not reach 90*C let alone 60*C.

In the Table https://www.cerrowire.com/products/resources/tables-calculators/ampacity-charts/

#4 AWG is 70A at 60C, 85A at 75C and 95A at 90C. If it reaches 100A, the wire won't go 90C? How is the NEC table actually measured? What ambient temperature and air conduction?

Also about "Services when sized to the NEC's rules".. what section is the NEC rule about the services size? In other countries where the power company is cost cutting and using any wire it wants without following rules, then I guess the 83% derating won't make sense then.

 

[mbrooke]

In the Table https://www.cerrowire.com/products/resources/tables-calculators/ampacity-charts/

#4 AWG is 70A at 60C, 85A at 75C and 95A at 90C. If it reaches 100A, the wire won't go 90C? How is the NEC table actually measured? What ambient temperature and air conduction?

5 amps isn't much of a difference relative to the rating of the wire.

Table 310.15 B 16 assumes 30*C. At temps other then 30*C there is a correction factor table:

Now, how the ampacity values in 310.15 B 16 are derived can become a lengthy debate as there is straight forward answer- however I can assure you that they are on the conservative side by a lot.

Also about "Services when sized to the NEC's rules".. what section is the NEC rule about the services size? In other countries where the power company is cost cutting and using any wire it wants without following rules, then I guess the 83% derating won't make sense then.

Article 220 is a good starting point.

In the NEC you are required to have a 100amp disconnect minimum, but in other countries this requirement can be overkill. A 63 or 30amp service may do, and as such you size the wire based on that. There is no 83% rule in the IEC, only what the wire can handle based on how its installed (ie in contact with insulation or not in contact)

 

[tersh]

5 amps isn't much of a difference relative to the rating of the wire.

Table 310.15 B 16 assumes 30*C. At temps other then 30*C there is a correction factor table:

Now, how the ampacity values in 310.15 B 16 are derived can become a lengthy debate as there is straight forward answer- however I can assure you that they are on the conservative side by a lot.





Article 220 is a good starting point.

In the NEC you are required to have a 100amp disconnect minimum, but in other countries this requirement can be overkill. A 63 or 30amp service may do, and as such you size the wire based on that. There is no 83% rule in the IEC, only what the wire can handle based on how its installed (ie in contact with insulation or not in contact)

I also noticed the 83% is applied double. Going to this image again:

and this:

That means you can use feeder size 83% of the 2/0 rated at 175A at 75.

Or 1/0 with 150A at 75C. So the 3/0 becomes 1/0.

Also isn't it you choose the service size depending on your loading. As summary. If your electrical plan load is 200A. then it's like the service conductor instead of 200A becomes 83% less or 175A, and your feeder becomes 150A only (another 83% off 175A)?

So what do you mean the service conductors are 2 to 3 times more than required? If your load is 200A and the service conductor is 250 wire gauge, then 83% makes perfect sense. Where did I misunderstand above?

 

[tersh]

I also noticed the 83% is applied double. Going to this image again:

and this:

That means you can use feeder size 83% of the 2/0 rated at 175A at 75.

Or 1/0 with 150A at 75C. So the 3/0 becomes 1/0.

Also isn't it you choose the service size depending on your loading. As summary. If your electrical plan load is 200A. then it's like the service conductor instead of 200A becomes 83% less or 175A, and your feeder becomes 150A only (another 83% off 175A)?

So what do you mean the service conductors are 2 to 3 times more than required? If your load is 200A and the service conductor is 250 wire gauge, then 83% makes perfect sense. Where did I misunderstand above?

What I was asking above was whether the 83% of the feeder is taken from the 83% of the service conductor derate or the original 100% conductor size? if the former. Then the feeder size becomes 83% of 83% or 68.89% of the original/supposed service conductor size? And also in our plans. We usually dictate the service conductor size. In the US, it's not the owners but the Poco who decides?

 

[tersh]

What I was asking above was whether the 83% of the feeder is taken from the 83% of the service conductor derate or the original 100% conductor size? if the former. Then the feeder size becomes 83% of 83% or 68.89% of the original/supposed service conductor size? And also in our plans. We usually dictate the service conductor size. In the US, it's not the owners but the Poco who decides?

I think the 83% in the service conductors and feeders are with respect to the overcurrent device (breakers).

Anyway I bought some samples of din rail enclosure and breaker just to see how they look like as most electricians experience are with the traditional plug in panels.

Are there different kinds of plastic materials/ingredients for these din rail MCB breaker enclosures? Like some made of fire retardant or other safety materials and some poor made like regular plastics? or do you think all of them are the same? Are they under CE marked (like UL mark in the US)?

Usually what cause these to burn? In terms of heat resistance. Do you think if the above breaker is say 125A, would the enclosure compete with these US marketed Molded Case 125A GE TQD breakers?

What temperature is say the US GE TQD Molded Case rated compare to the European designed din rail MCB enclosures? Which do you think can ignite faster?

Residence in the US also use these or only used for Industrial?

 

[mbrooke]

I think the 83% in the service conductors and feeders are with respect to the overcurrent device (breakers).

Yup, it is- if you have a 100 amp main breaker, you take 83% of 100 and then use that number to size your wire.

Anyway I bought some samples of din rail enclosure and breaker just to see how they look like as most electricians experience are with the traditional plug in panels.

Looks good

Are there different kinds of plastic materials/ingredients for these din rail MCB breaker enclosures? Like some made of fire retardant or other safety materials and some poor made like regular plastics? or do you think all of them are the same? Are they under CE marked (like UL mark in the US)?

Go for metal enclosures be it IEC or US equipment. I've always thought it dumb that plastic enclosures are so common outside the US. Then again if forced to go outdoors I'd use plastic due to the rust I've seen even on NEMA 3 R enclosures.

Usually what cause these to burn? In terms of heat resistance. Do you think if the above breaker is say 125A, would the enclosure compete with these US marketed Molded Case 125A GE TQD breakers?

Breaker fires result from usually two things:

1. Loose/poor connections at the screw terminals- the joule heating is so great that a fire can result in any case.

2. Misapplied voltage or current interrupting rating. Say a 10ka breaker interrupting 20ka or a 240 volt breaker on 600 volts- when interrupting a short circuit the breaker will burn or explode.


I have seen people torture test IEC breakers on Youtube, and they actually hold up well given the extreme conditions.

What temperature is say the US GE TQD Molded Case rated compare to the European designed din rail MCB enclosures? Which do you think can ignite faster?

Honestly, I'd say the IEC breaker would burn faster in that I have taken a torch to the fiberglass case on GE breakers and it took a lot to get it to burn somewhat.

I do not know the exact temps that GE or IEC breakers will ignite at.

 

[tersh]

Yup, it is- if you have a 100 amp main breaker, you take 83% of 100 and then use that number to size your wire.





Looks good




Go for metal enclosures be it IEC or US equipment. I've always thought it dumb that plastic enclosures are so common outside the US. Then again if forced to go outdoors I'd use plastic due to the rust I've seen even on NEMA 3 R enclosures.






Breaker fires result from usually two things:

1. Loose/poor connections at the screw terminals- the joule heating is so great that a fire can result in any case.

2. Misapplied voltage or current interrupting rating. Say a 10ka breaker interrupting 20ka or a 240 volt breaker on 600 volts- when interrupting a short circuit the breaker will burn or explode.


I have seen people torture test IEC breakers on Youtube, and they actually hold up well given the extreme conditions.




Honestly, I'd say the IEC breaker would burn faster in that I have taken a torch to the fiberglass case on GE breakers and it took a lot to get it to burn somewhat.

I do not know the exact temps that GE or IEC breakers will ignite at.

mbrooke, late last year we were discussing a lot about using RCDs or RCBOs to protect the Siemens panel chassis with 6 GFCI breakers (5mA) itself from ground fault. We planned using 30mA RCD/RCBO with time delay. The rationale for time delay is that without it. What if one GFCI breaker had a 50mA current inbalance, it can trip the RCBO along with the 5mA breaker (because an GFCI breaker doesn't limit the current, it is only tripped when it detected the 5mA threshold) and turn off the power to the whole house (not good in the middle of bath at night).

So an 30mA RCBO with time delay won't have nuisance tripping right? This is provided the Siemens panel chassis would be GECed to the soil (to make the 30mA RCBO trip should a ground fault detected).

Since the 6pcs Siemens GFCI breaker has 5mA threshold each. Even if there is less than 5mA leak from normal appliance dielectric old age micro leak and each breaker has 4mA leak, the total would be 4x6=24mA and still won't trip the 30mA RCBO, isn't it.

Someone mentioned his RCD or RCBO has 17mA tripping threshold.

Do you know what is the most advance 30mA RCBO with time delay model in Europe? One that can even show magnitude of the leak in the LCD screen (like showing "14mA ambient leak detected"). Usually how long is the time delay? how many milliseconds?

This will create a truly total house GFCI and RCBO protection where even the GFCI breakers panel/chassis is protected with the RCBO before it encased in plastic enclosure (as you shown in the pic last year). I processed all information shared there. Thanks again to you and other people like Winnie who shared a lot and I learnt a lot. Ultimately it will benefit our countrymen when our engineers become more conscious about safety in a place where EGC and GEC don't exist (remember all of out appliances don't have any EGC whatever as I shared also in our discussions late last year).

 

[mbrooke]

mbrooke, late last year we were discussing a lot about using RCDs or RCBOs to protect the Siemens panel chassis with 6 GFCI breakers (5mA) itself from ground fault. We planned using 30mA RCD/RCBO with time delay. The rationale for time delay is that without it. What if one GFCI breaker had a 50mA current inbalance, it can trip the RCBO along with the 5mA breaker (because an GFCI breaker doesn't limit the current, it is only tripped when it detected the 5mA threshold) and turn off the power to the whole house (not good in the middle of bath at night).

Time delay is a no brainier. Where there is a main RCD and sub RCDs the main should be of the time delay type.

So an 30mA RCBO with time delay won't have nuisance tripping right? This is provided the Siemens panel chassis would be GECed to the soil (to make the 30mA RCBO trip should a ground fault detected).

Hard to say with 100% accuracy (see comments below), however assuming the leakage current of all 6 circuits is 3ma, 6x3=18, 18ma should be fine on a 30ma RCD. 50ma would be ideal with a GEC'd chassis.

Since the 6pcs Siemens GFCI breaker has 5mA threshold each. Even if there is less than 5mA leak from normal appliance dielectric old age micro leak and each breaker has 4mA leak, the total would be 4x6=24mA and still won't trip the 30mA RCBO, isn't it.

I think so, however UK members would have to chime in because I've heard that a 30ma RCD can trip below that value.

Someone mentioned his RCD or RCBO has 17mA tripping threshold.

Do you know what is the most advance 30mA RCBO with time delay model in Europe? One that can even show magnitude of the leak in the LCD screen (like showing "14mA ambient leak detected"). Usually how long is the time delay? how many milliseconds?

I've heard similar, that Euro RCDs can trip below the listed value, but unsure by how much. In North America it is different, a 5ma RCD usually trips exceeding 5ma, and currents lower then 10ma actually take time.

This will create a truly total house GFCI and RCBO protection where even the GFCI breakers panel/chassis is protected with the RCBO before it encased in plastic enclosure (as you shown in the pic last year). I processed all information shared there. Thanks again to you and other people like Winnie who shared a lot and I learnt a lot. Ultimately it will benefit our countrymen when our engineers become more conscious about safety in a place where EGC and GEC don't exist (remember all of out appliances don't have any EGC whatever as I shared also in our discussions late last year).

I like your idea, and I would certainly do it! You're dedication to a safe electrical system is very respectable!


Hopefully UK members can share their knowledge regarding the trip thresholds of RCDs and how to apply time delay types.

 

[tersh]

Time delay is a no brainier. Where there is a main RCD and sub RCDs the main should be of the time delay type.



Hard to say with 100% accuracy (see comments below), however assuming the leakage current of all 6 circuits is 3ma, 6x3=18, 18ma should be fine on a 30ma RCD. 50ma would be ideal with a GEC'd chassis.




I think so, however UK members would have to chime in because I've heard that a 30ma RCD can trip below that value.





I've heard similar, that Euro RCDs can trip below the listed value, but unsure by how much. In North America it is different, a 5ma RCD usually trips exceeding 5ma, and currents lower then 10ma actually take time.





I like your idea, and I would certainly do it! You're dedication to a safe electrical system is very respectable!


Hopefully UK members can share their knowledge regarding the trip thresholds of RCDs and how to apply time delay types.

Well I just found out now there is this General Electric 2-pole GFCI breaker

https://www.amazon.com/GE-THQL2130G...4FN95X0AVSN&psc=1&refRID=GGWEGPGA14FN95X0AVSN

Has anyone used it?

In the Philippines. 90% of our plug in panels use GE Breakers. We could just use plug in the above. Do you think all GE breakers spring clips and panels bus bar stubs are the same or are there differences in the thickness of the bus bar or spring clips?

Also 99% of our main panels were locally made and not even made by GE. It looks like GE breakers have the simplest spring clips that can latch even onto locally made panels... that's why GE brands are mostly used. For example the following is my original locally made main panel and GE breakers all throughout. The contractor put 30A in each and use AWG 10 for all.

The Siemens bus bar is a bit thicker than the GE bus bar. This is why the Siemens 2-pole GFCI breakers can't use our locally made panels because our bus bar is a tad thinner and there would even be less contacts and can cause resistive heating. This is the exact reason I had to get the Siemens PL Load Center and had to go through all the trouble.

Why doesn't GE create a GFCI 2-pole panel that doesn't have the white pigtail to power the 120v electronics. They could easily just use the 2-pole input to power the circuits. That way they can sell millions of GFCI 2-pole breakers to the Philippines where people can just swap the regular one. Isn't it?

For our locally made panels. It's difficult to put neutral lugs bar to connect the white pigtail. One has to connect it manually and use step down autotransformer like my Siemens and this can make the cover unable to be put back.

Anyway I think I'll order the GE GFCI breakers above just to see how the spring clips look like. I didn't know it existed until now after I saw this https://www.geindustrial.com/produc...ound-fault-circuit-interrupter-self-test-gfci

 

[mbrooke]

Why no handle ties or 2 pole common trip in that panel?

 

[tersh]

Why no handle ties or 2 pole common trip in that panel?

Ah, it was just old file photo. It was that way when the house was bought second hand. I since added the following common trip handles:

Btw.. for two poles.. either side should trip right?

We have so many fake breakers too or counterfeit. In the following an American who married a filipina came to the country and built a home with knowledge of US electrical system. But he noticed only one of the 2-pole can trip during a short and randomly which side. His comments:

https://myphilippinelife.com/philippine-electrical-wiring/

"The assumption that the two halves of DP breakers can serve as SP breakers proved to be very wrong. The double-pole breakers are NOT just two single pole breakers physically joined. We found this out the hard way when we had a total short in one of our circuits and the 20 amp breaker did not trip, but instead melted a #12 AWG wire. This must have been a huge overload, far beyond 20 amps.We then tested the breakers on a test circuit. We found that only one side of our double pole breaker provide short circuit protection. It’s unknown which side may provide over current protection. Presumably, breakers made to be used as single-pole provide both protections in a single breaker, as do double-pole breakers used as a unit."

The following was the GE breakers he described:

Is it normal behavior or counterfeit?

Also in your experience, what other American breaker brands have compatible spring clips and bus bar stubs as the GE?
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