Classification of Fire Station

jap

Senior Member
I wired a rural fire station outside of any type local inspection.
It was 60 x 100 metal building with 8 bay doors.
I wired it all commercially conduit, wire, etc....

They now have built the offices in one of the fire station.
It is an all wood stud structure and will hava all sheetrock hardlid ceiling with a deck on top for storage and possible an upstairs future bunking area if the need should arise.
The topic of wiring the office in NMB keeps coming up.

I would like to complete the project commercially with pipe, wire, mc cable metal boxes etc.... since we're almost done, yet, I cant seem to find anything that would disallow the use of romex in this type of installation.

Other than looking extremely out of place along side what I've already installed is there anything else that might keep this type of stucture being wired with Romex?

JAP>.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Take a look at 334.10(3).

If I had to guess, if it really is outside of any building code inspection as you claim, then it could be of type III, IV, or V construction. In fact, if what you are claiming is true, the whole thing could probably have been wired in NM.
 

jap

Senior Member
Take a look at 334.10(3).

If I had to guess, if it really is outside of any building code inspection as you claim, then it could be of type III, IV, or V construction. In fact, if what you are claiming is true, the whole thing could probably have been wired in NM.

Thats what I was looking at.
Without having anyone to claim it as to what classification it was,I approached it as a type I or II to begin with.

Thanks,
JAP>
 

david

Senior Member
Thats what I was looking at.
Without having anyone to claim it as to what classification it was,I approached it as a type I or II to begin with.

Thanks,
JAP>
our local volunteer fire rescue does there own minor repairs to there vehicles in the fire station garage. That could make it a commercial garage minor repairs
 

jap

Senior Member
our local volunteer fire rescue does there own minor repairs to there vehicles in the fire station garage. That could make it a commercial garage minor repairs
That's a good point.
This one does the same.

Although I'm not sure that the boundry between the office and the bay area might not put it back to being able to be wired in NM.

JAP>
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
our local volunteer fire rescue does there own minor repairs to there vehicles in the fire station garage. That could make it a commercial garage minor repairs
I don't see how volunteer repairs would make it a commercial garage.
 

david

Senior Member
I don't see how volunteer repairs would make it a commercial garage.
I am not sure i understand, its a commercial building for housing vehicles, if the individuals who utilize a garage to do minor repairs on the vehicles how would it not be a commercial garage.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
, its a commercial building
It is not a commercial building, it is a municipal building.



http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/commercial
commercial

adjective com·mer·cial \kə-ˈmər-shəl\

: related to or used in the buying and selling of goods and services

: concerned with earning money

: relating to or based on the amount of profit that something earns


Full Definition of COMMERCIAL



(1) : occupied with or engaged in commerce or work intended for commerce <a commercial artist>

(2) : of or relating to commerce <commercial regulations>

(3) : characteristic of commerce <commercial weights>

(4) : suitable, adequate, or prepared for commerce <found oil in commercial quantities>

b (1) : being of an average or inferior quality <commercial oxalic acid> <show-quality versus commercial cattle>

(2) : producing artistic work of low standards for quick market success

2

a : viewed with regard to profit <a commercial success>

b : designed for a large market

3
: emphasizing skills and subjects useful in business <a commercial school>

4
: supported by advertisers <commercial TV>
— com·mer·ci·al·i·ty
\kə-ˌmər-shē-ˈa-lə-tē\ noun
— com·mer·cial·ly
\-ˈmər-sh(ə-)lē\ adverb

There is nothing happening in an average fire station that would make it commercial.
 

david

Senior Member
Hum! That is funny, I'm trying to decide if you are serious or not.

Most states in regards to classifying buildings have a separation between what is residential and what is commercial.
Generally when a state classifies a building for the purpose of a building code the activity of participating in commerce in regards to it being classified commercial for building types has nothing to do with it.

511.2 Definitions
Minor Repair Garage.
 

peter d

Senior Member
Well let's wait a bit on the trip to Home Depot for NM because I could be wrong.

Some here would have a heart attack if they knew how many "commercial" buildings were wired 100% with NM cable here in New England. :lol::lol:
 

david

Senior Member
I am 100% serious.

A municipal building is not a commercial building
OK, a municipal building only speaks to ownership, how a portion of a building or a buildings classification usually falls back on a building code or state to define. In this case the OP was looking to apply a NEC to a building that from his comments no Authority took or has Jurisdiction over. From his comments he was trying to determine if any NEC sections specifically would addressed is situation or the use of NM cable in this building.

So are you challenging the use of the term commercial in article 511 or are you challenging the scope in 511, in that this article would not apply to a portion of a building that minor repairs are being done.

Commercial buildings are usually defined in a states building code in a broad sense separating commercial from residential and classifying buildings as either one or the other. In this state a the garage porion of this building would be commercial.

Commercial construction -- A building, structure or facility that is not a residential building.

Residential building -- Detached one-family and two-family dwellings and townhouses which are not more than three stories above grade plane in height with a separate means of egress and their accessory structures.

Edit: "Residential building." Detached one-family and two-family dwellings and multiple single-family dwellings which are not more than three stories in height with a separate means of egress which includes accessory structures. From the statute in this state the definition of residential is a little more broad than the definition pulled from the requlations
 
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iwire

Moderator
Staff member
So are you challenging the use of the term commercial in article 511 or are you challenging the scope in 511, in that this article would not apply to a portion of a building that minor repairs are being done.
I am challenging you view that a volunteer fire station is a commercial building to the NEC and trying to apply anything in article 511 to it.

Now if article 511 was titled non-dwelling unit garages I would agree with you.
 

david

Senior Member
I am challenging you view that a volunteer fire station is a commercial building to the NEC and trying to apply anything in article 511 to it.

Now if article 511 was titled non-dwelling unit garages I would agree with you.
than your challenge is based on the title of the article and not the scope, my understanding of why commercial garage is or was added o the title, was to make it clear the article did not apply to residential garages
 

jap

Senior Member
OK, a municipal building only speaks to ownership, how a portion of a building or a buildings classification usually falls back on a building code or state to define. In this case the OP was looking to apply a NEC to a building that from his comments no Authority took or has Jurisdiction over. From his comments he was trying to determine if any NEC sections specifically would addressed is situation or the use of NM cable in this building.

So are you challenging the use of the term commercial in article 511 or are you challenging the scope in 511, in that this article would not apply to a portion of a building that minor repairs are being done.

Commercial buildings are usually defined in a states building code in a broad sense separating commercial from residential and classifying buildings as either one or the other. In this state a the garage porion of this building would be commercial.

Commercial construction -- A building, structure or facility that is not a residential building.

Residential building -- Detached one-family and two-family dwellings and townhouses which are not more than three stories above grade plane in height with a separate means of egress and their accessory structures.

Edit: "Residential building." Detached one-family and two-family dwellings and multiple single-family dwellings which are not more than three stories in height with a separate means of egress which includes accessory structures. From the statute in this state the definition of residential is a little more broad than the definition pulled from the requlations
I did wire the bay area of the firestation commercially.
Just trying to carry that type of installation into the office area (Which was built after the fact out of wood studs), but so far it seems I dont have a good arguement to comabat the request for NM wiring other than it just dont seem right.

JAP>
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
than your challenge is based on the title of the article and not the scope, my understanding of why commercial garage is or was added o the title, was to make it clear the article did not apply to residential garages
If we go with just the scope the article it would apply to dwelling units which I think we both agree is not true. So the scope as written is not clear.

If what you said about the change was true then I would have to say they goofed up. If they wanted that article to apply to non-commercial garages they really should have used the typical 'other than dwelling unit' language that is used throughout the code.

One wonders if you view is true about a change to the title why they just would not have fixed the wording in the scope?
 

david

Senior Member
If we go with just the scope the article it would apply to dwelling units which I think we both agree is not true. So the scope as written is not clear.

If what you said about the change was true then I would have to say they goofed up. If they wanted that article to apply to non-commercial garages they really should have used the typical 'other than dwelling unit' language that is used throughout the code.

One wonders if you view is true about a change to the title why they just would not have fixed the wording in the scope?
I do not know, a similar comment was made in one of Mike’s code change DVD’S in regards to 511 scope of the article in making it clear that the GFCI protection for receptacles was intended for all non residential garages regardless of gasoline, if I remember right a big discussion took place on the code panel as to write a totally new article or try and change the scope of article 511
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
I do not know, a similar comment was made in one of Mike’s code change DVD’S in regards to 511 scope of the article in making it clear that the GFCI protection for receptacles was intended for all non residential garages regardless of gasoline, if I remember right a big discussion took place on the code panel as to write a totally new article or try and change the scope of article 511
So what you are telling me is that the CMP sees the issue and has not fixed it?

Regardless it currently says what it says and IMO there is nothing commercial about a volunteer fire station. :)
 
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