Classification of Fire Station

[david]

So what you are telling me is that the CMP sees the issue and has not fixed it?

Regardless it currently says what it says and IMO there is nothing commercial about a volunteer fire station.

Well its more commercial than it is residential.

If I was defining the garage portion of this facility I would go to the definition for commercial garage in the NEC.

Not finding a definition there I would go to other codes that deal with the facility if having no luck I would than go to Webster’s ‘

In my state it is simple the state law says its commercial

Edit: take the same building not under municipal ownership. private use and see if you could build it in a area designated residential without a variance

 

[david]

I did wire the bay area of the firestation commercially.
Just trying to carry that type of installation into the office area (Which was built after the fact out of wood studs), but so far it seems I dont have a good arguement to comabat the request for NM wiring other than it just dont seem right.

JAP>

(1) Specific Areas Adjacent to Classified Locations.

If the repair area was classified or unclassified (Gasoline verses Diesel) or based on air movement taken no more than 12 inch off the floor. Than apply areas adjacent to classified locations

 

[iwire]

Well its more commercial than it is residential.

I am not claiming it is residential, I am simply saying it is not commercial.

If I was defining the garage portion of this facility I would go to the definition for commercial garage in the NEC.

I think it is clear you would, in my personal opinion that is a mistake.

Not finding a definition there I would go to other codes that deal with the facility if having no luck I would than go to Webster’s ‘

I believe the correct order is NEC first for definitions than the dictionary the NFPA recommends.

I posted the definition of commercial and it does not fit the volunteer fire station.

In my state it is simple the state law says its commercial

Does it really say volunteer fire stations are commercial?

Or are they simply in commercial zones?

Edit: take the same building not under municipal ownership. private use and see if you could build it in a area designated residential without a varian

Again I am not calling it residential or a dwelling unit.

 

[raider1]

Thats what I was looking at.
Without having anyone to claim it as to what classification it was,I approached it as a type I or II to begin with.

Thanks,
JAP>

FWIW if the building is built using combustible material then it can't be a Type I or Type II building. IBC 602.2 specifies that Types I and II construction are those types of construction in which the building elements are of non-combustible materials.

Type I and II buildings are metal or concrete/masonry type buildings.

Chris

 

[dema]

Types of Buildings

Types of Buildings

For NM cable, according to NEC 334, it may be used in other structures if type III, IV, or V construction. So, if this is wood construction, it may be used unless excluded.

Exclusions include commercial garages having hazardous locations as in 511.3.

The facility would then be a minor repair facility. If there is no dispensing and if no there are no pits or below grade areas, the whole floor is unclassified. If there is no natural gas or hydrogen, the rest is unclassified. (And this is without air exchanges.) So this appears to be defined as a Hazardous location with zero hazardous location area. So, may you use NM cable in a garage with zero hazardous location area? I claim that since it says that the commercial garage has to have a hazardous location, that you may use NM cable.

So, if it is a garage of type III, IV or V construction, but not commercial, then you can use NM cable.
If it is a commercial garage, (with same requriements) with no hazardous location, then you can use NM cable.

Maybe there are local ordinances that prevent the use of NM cable?

Or maybe you want to dig a pit in the middle of the floor so you can't use NM cable? That might work - if it is commercial. Hmmmmm.

 

[dema]

Commercial

Commercial

I don't think that the term "commercial" differentiates very often, if at all. I agree that residential vs non-residential matters. But from there I think it is the type of construction and the type of occupancy that matter. Actually in the other order. The size and type of occupancy determine what type of construction may be used and from there we get what kind of electrical device may be installed. For either residential or non-residential. With residential having the sub-categories based on occupancy.

 

[jap]

FWIW if the building is built using combustible material then it can't be a Type I or Type II building. IBC 602.2 specifies that Types I and II construction are those types of construction in which the building elements are of non-combustible materials.

Type I and II buildings are metal or concrete/masonry type buildings.

Chris

It was Type I or TypeII before they built the offices out of wood studs (Whicch came along about 8 months after I originally wired the Bay Area.

Building the Offices out of Wood studs turned it into a different type after the fact.


JAP>

 

[david]

For NM cable, according to NEC 334, it may be used in other structures if type III, IV, or V construction. So, if this is wood construction, it may be used unless excluded.

Exclusions include commercial garages having hazardous locations as in 511.3.

The facility would then be a minor repair facility. If there is no dispensing and if no there are no pits or below grade areas, the whole floor is unclassified. If there is no natural gas or hydrogen, the rest is unclassified. (And this is without air exchanges.) So this appears to be defined as a Hazardous location with zero hazardous location area. So, may you use NM cable in a garage with zero hazardous location area? I claim that since it says that the commercial garage has to have a hazardous location, that you may use NM cable.

So, if it is a garage of type III, IV or V construction, but not commercial, then you can use NM cable.
If it is a commercial garage, (with same requriements) with no hazardous location, then you can use NM cable.

Maybe there are local ordinances that prevent the use of NM cable?

Or maybe you want to dig a pit in the middle of the floor so you can't use NM cable? That might work - if it is commercial. Hmmmmm.

The uses permitted is concealed in 15 min walls floor and ceilings, so as a particle matter since wiring methods in garages of this type are exposed NM cable would not be an allowable wiring method in the garage area.

In the office area I do not see an exclusion of NM cable in the 15 min walls floors and above the hard cap (dry- wall) ceiling areas. The building codes require most attic spaces to be accessible based on the roof pitch (height of the rafters area) so NM cable would be limited in the use in this facility based on construction type.

 

[gadfly56]

I am 100% serious.

A municipal building is not a commercial building

It's not so much who owns it, it's what type of activity takes place in the space. The volunteer fire personnel are performing the same activities in their municipal building (which it might not be, by the way, if the incorporated fire company owns it outright) that take place in a "commercial" building. The code is intended to protect against the hazards identified therein. If it's a commercial-like hazard, the electrical installation should conform to commercial requirements.

 

[raider1]

It was Type I or TypeII before they built the offices out of wood studs (Whicch came along about 8 months after I originally wired the Bay Area.

Building the Offices out of Wood studs turned it into a different type after the fact.


JAP>

Not necessarily, a Type V building can be built out of metal or concrete. If they added an office addition with wood studs onto the existing metal building I would guess that the original building was designed and built as a Type V using a metal building. We are getting into the finer nuances of Chapter 5 and 6 of the IBC.

Chris

 

[david]

I am not claiming it is residential, I am simply saying it is not commercial.
I think it is clear you would, in my personal opinion that is a mistake.
I believe the correct order is NEC first for definitions than the dictionary the NFPA recommends.
I posted the definition of commercial and it does not fit the volunteer fire station.
does it really say volunteer fire stations are commercial?
Or are they simply in commercial zones?
Again I am not calling it residential or a dwelling unit.

I have to go to the building codes first since it is a building classification under the building code not the NEC.
Then i would apply the NEC to how the building is classified, then classify the area's in terms assocoated with the wiring and electrical classifications under the NEC.

From the building Code 2006 in more recent versions of the building code the NEC is no longer considered a standard by reference but rather is the Electrical Code for non residential buildings covered under the Building code. So definitions found in he NEC as it pertains to electrical provisos would be applicable as well, as long as there is no conflict.

201.3 Terms defined in other codes. Where terms are not
defined in this code and are defined in the International Fuel
Gas Code, International Fire Code, International Mechanical
Code or International Plumbing Code, such terms shall have
the meanings ascribed to them as in those codes.

201.4 Terms not defined. Where terms are not defined
through the methods authorized by this section, such terms
shall have ordinarily accepted meanings such as the context
implies.

Comment from the building department: For profit or not for profit (volunteer)is not considered. A fire station would be classified as type B category type B is commercial and a garage in a type B occupancy would be a commercial garage.

Further comment the building department would classify this a commercial garage and would suspect the NEC section 511 would be applicable to a commercial garage.

 

[raider1]

A fire station would be classified as type B category type B is commercial and a garage in a type B occupancy would be a commercial garage.

The office portion of the fire station would be a B occupancy, the "Garage" portion of the fire station would be an S-2, and the sleeping area would be an R-2.

Chris

 

[iwire]

I don't see how the building codes have to do with the scope of 511.

Why does the NEC define a dwelling unit if we are to turn to the building code to determine these types of things?

 

[gadfly56]

The office portion of the fire station would be a B occupancy, the "Garage" portion of the fire station would be an S-2, and the sleeping area would be an R-2.

Chris

And unless the occupancies are separated by suitable fire barriers, the most stringent codes apply to the entire building.

 

[jap]

And unless the occupancies are separated by suitable fire barriers, the most stringent codes apply to the entire building.

Meaning Romex allowed or no?

JAP>

 

[david]

I don't see how the building codes have to do with the scope of 511.

Why does the NEC define a dwelling unit if we are to turn to the building code to determine these types of things?

Because I started doing electrical inspections based on the NEC back in 1990 and the state never adopted the NEC or any other code (building) until April of 2005. Prior to April 2005 I was a consultant though certified through the International Association of Electrical Inspectors. Every Municipality had the right to enact an ordinance adopting the NEC up until April 2005. Had I worked in a municipality that had adopted the NEC by ordinance, NEC like other Codes was intendant to be adoptable as a stand alone code or part of a family of building codes. The definitions are necessary like dwelling when there is no family of codes adopted.

The NEC definition of a dwelling was most likely extracted from a building code and incorporated into the NEC.

When I was in the ARMY Ft Sill OK. the Army engineers used the NEC for there Electrical Installations, who Knows if Lawton OK used the NEC or not back then

 

[david]

Meaning Romex allowed or no?

JAP>

I think it has been confirmed yes, The building having wood joist would put it in a classification outside of type I or type II

 

[Sharpie]

I am a Firefighter in our local Vol. Fire Co. and also the "resident" electrician. We had similar discussions, and went around in circles. Eventually I just had to reason with them. My argument was: Regardless of the building construction type and minimum requirements by law, we are the community's Fire Dept. That means that when the rest of the world is falling apart around us, we need to be there, ready to go do our job. It is in our community's best interest to build/maintain our fire house to higher-than-normal standards so that we don't have to worry about our own facilities when we are putting out everyone else's fires.

This argument was pretty well received by all. We need to stop asking "What can we get away with?" and start asking "What is the best, most rock-solid/reliable way we can do this within our means?".

My two cents. Thanks.

 

[petersonra]

I am a Firefighter in our local Vol. Fire Co. and also the "resident" electrician. We had similar discussions, and went around in circles. Eventually I just had to reason with them. My argument was: Regardless of the building construction type and minimum requirements by law, we are the community's Fire Dept. That means that when the rest of the world is falling apart around us, we need to be there, ready to go do our job. It is in our community's best interest to build/maintain our fire house to higher-than-normal standards so that we don't have to worry about our own facilities when we are putting out everyone else's fires.

This argument was pretty well received by all. We need to stop asking "What can we get away with?" and start asking "What is the best, most rock-solid/reliable way we can do this within our means?".

My two cents. Thanks.

I think you would have a tough argument to make that not using Romex gets you very far in a wood frame building, as far as a more robust construction means goes. The wood frame construction is a much more serious issue than Romex.

 

[kwired]

And unless the occupancies are separated by suitable fire barriers, the most stringent codes apply to the entire building.

in general NEC doesn't define such boundaries. I think it is commonly accepted though that other codes will require a certain level of fire rating at such boundaries between occupancies.

Not so written rule I sometimes run into is in small churches or other similar places. Main sanctuary often is large enough to be a place of assembly. But the basement, accessory building, addition, etc. may have smaller rooms - those are not deemed a place of assembly - yet if there is not at least a one hour wall between them and the main sanctuary the electrical inspectors consider them an extension of the place of assembly.

This is usually not a problem with new construction as fire marshal will require at least a one hour separation, but is something to consider when working on smaller projects in something existing.