Client refuses permit - turn down work? Turn them in?

[grasfulls]

Licensed, then prove again

Licensed, then prove again

This brings up a list of issues together. It has always bothered me that we have to get licensed to prove we can do the work. Then we have to get permit and inspection to be sure we did it right. If that is the case, why require a license? If inspector will assure a proper job, let the homeowner do it. In our state if the inspector missed something and an accident happens, guess who is liable? Contractor; inspector is covered by public immunity. How convenient for him. lj/

So true. And what does an inspector inspect if you have just installed a switch? I have never had one say, "take it all apart so I may see the connections and have you show me the screws are at their specified torque value", at most, they have me turn it on.

 

[kwired]

So true. And what does an inspector inspect if you have just installed a switch? I have never had one say, "take it all apart so I may see the connections and have you show me the screws are at their specified torque value", at most, they have me turn it on.

Every installer is supposed to have an inspector at his side, every hour worked, but the inspector is not allowed to actually help, he is to just inspect. He can't tell you something is wrong before you complete it either, you must tell him you are finished and then he can tell you what you did wrong:happyyes:

 

[grasfulls]

At my side

At my side

Every installer is supposed to have an inspector at his side, every hour worked, but the inspector is not allowed to actually help, he is to just inspect. He can't tell you something is wrong before you complete it either, you must tell him you are finished and then he can tell you what you did wrong:happyyes:

hehaheheahaeheheahehahaha
YES!
You have just implemented your first adder to California law. I have a feeling it is more widely felt though. You forgot - "EC to absorb all costs, what is stated to be wrong may be arbitrary, personal opinion, in conflict with the NEC..... we don't care"

 

[dhalleron]

i think it is a waste of time and money to get a permit, the city just wants to make money, and who cares if i don't get a permit I don't think my insurance company cares they will pay for my biggest investment my home if it burns , even if it was never permitted or inspected, will they? heck I can afford to loose $200 to 300K no one thinks of the big risk they take, when they fail to get permits, and inspections.

Somewhere buried deep in the insurance policy I have is a section that states I am not covered if I perform work illegally. The law states I need to get a permit to install new wire. If that wire is proved to have caused a fire or hurt someone and I did not get a permit then I am not covered.

It's also a $1000 fine in my area if I don't pull a required permit. Since I am part time, I can't afford the fine, so I get permits for any new work no matter how small. Many contractors I have talked to do not get a permit for a small installation such as extending an existing circuit to add an outlet.

Last week I spoke to an inspector in a county that I had never worked in before. I ran this question by him and his answer was - I won't tell you a permit is not required but I don't expect a permit to be pulled on every small job. His official answer was get the permit.

Permits are $50 in my county, $45 in another nearby county and $25 plus pay the inspector $XX (don't know his fee) in another nearby county.

 

[grasfulls]

Same boat

Same boat

Somewhere buried deep in the insurance policy I have is a section that states I am not covered if I perform work illegally. The law states I need to get a permit to install new wire. If that wire is proved to have caused a fire or hurt someone and I did not get a permit then I am not covered.

It's also a $1000 fine in my area if I don't pull a required permit. Since I am part time, I can't afford the fine, so I get permits for any new work no matter how small. Many contractors I have talked to do not get a permit for a small installation such as extending an existing circuit to add an outlet.

Last week I spoke to an inspector in a county that I had never worked in before. I ran this question by him and his answer was - I won't tell you a permit is not required but I don't expect a permit to be pulled on every small job. His official answer was get the permit.

Permits are $50 in my county, $45 in another nearby county and $25 plus pay the inspector $XX (don't know his fee) in another nearby county.

Looks like the same boat we are all in. The little informal "I do not expect...." means nothing when someone complains to a licensing board, it turns into "we always mandate a permit, I never tell any contractor to not pull a permit when there is supposed to be a permit." It is not their rear end, it is ours. :-(.

It would be nice of the law stated, "unless the local authority having jurisdiction deems not permit is necessary", but they would have to put their words into writing and we pretty much know they do not want the liability.

 

[kwired]

Looks like the same boat we are all in. The little informal "I do not expect...." means nothing when someone complains to a licensing board, it turns into "we always mandate a permit, I never tell any contractor to not pull a permit when there is supposed to be a permit." It is not their rear end, it is ours. :-(.

It would be nice of the law stated, "unless the local authority having jurisdiction deems not permit is necessary", but they would have to put their words into writing and we pretty much know they do not want the liability.

It is no different than a traffic cop letting you drive 5 mph over the speed limit before he even thinks about pulling you over, and if he does pull you over, maybe he only gives you a warning if you are less than 10 mph over the speed limit. Otherwise if the speed limit is 65, then there is no question that 66>65, but someone can probably find a way that legally proves this wrong:happyyes:

 

[grasfulls]

like 5mph over

like 5mph over

It is no different than a traffic cop letting you drive 5 mph over the speed limit before he even thinks about pulling you over, and if he does pull you over, maybe he only gives you a warning if you are less than 10 mph over the speed limit. Otherwise if the speed limit is 65, then there is no question that 66>65, but someone can probably find a way that legally proves this wrong:happyyes:

Good Analogy. Sad thing is it seems just as there are "tough" cops, there are tough "inspectors", and sadly, the laws are written in such a way as to permit it....little play on the word permit there. Interesting thing when you meet a great cop, you want to do what is right for them, when you meet a jerk.....

 

[kbsparky]

Repair/replacement of like kind equipment (such as replacing a broken switch or receptacle) does not require a permit around here.

Once you install any new wiring, such as extending a circuit for new outlets, then most areas require one. Some counties have exceptions for a "minor installation" which allows you to add up to 3 outlets to an existing circuit without needing a permit.

 

[grasfulls]

no permit here

no permit here

Repair/replacement of like kind equipment (such as replacing a broken switch or receptacle) does not require a permit around here.

Once you install any new wiring, such as extending a circuit for new outlets, then most areas require one. Some counties have exceptions for a "minor installation" which allows you to add up to 3 outlets to an existing circuit without needing a permit.

Another very reasonable "Law". However, when it comes to reasonableness, not sure you find that much any more. This is all you get all the way up the line, a bunch of drones saying "It is the law, we will enforce it". Then, they go further with stating "you are a lawbreaker".... It is rather a Catch22, don't do the work and don't make money OR Get busted for breaking the law, albeit one that makes very little sense, has an actual negative impact on work being done properly/safely, and creates a disadvantage to honest contractors and hard-pressed homeowners.

Only in California litigate it to death, create it to suck as much money as you can, use it against anyone who complains.

 

[kwired]

Another very reasonable "Law". However, when it comes to reasonableness, not sure you find that much any more. This is all you get all the way up the line, a bunch of drones saying "It is the law, we will enforce it". Then, they go further with stating "you are a lawbreaker".... It is rather a Catch22, don't do the work and don't make money OR Get busted for breaking the law, albeit one that makes very little sense, has an actual negative impact on work being done properly/safely, and creates a disadvantage to honest contractors and hard-pressed homeowners.

Only in California litigate it to death, create it to suck as much money as you can, use it against anyone who complains.

There are other places to live and work:happyyes:

 

[grasfulls]

other places to work

other places to work

There are other places to live and work:happyyes:

At my age, and with family members grown and married themselves..... If I had only known what the future would bring. Oh, if I had known that I would have bought into Microsoft and Apple and we would not be discussing this now. I do envy those of you working in areas mentioned that are based on reasonableness. Sadly, unlike diseases and sickness, it does not spread out. In fact, you had better be careful that your AHJ, License Board, State agency, whoever, does not see this untapped revenue source - Unrealistic laws <--- some kinda sickness.

 

[kwired]

At my age, and with family members grown and married themselves..... If I had only known what the future would bring. Oh, if I had known that I would have bought into Microsoft and Apple and we would not be discussing this now. I do envy those of you working in areas mentioned that are based on reasonableness. Sadly, unlike diseases and sickness, it does not spread out. In fact, you had better be careful that your AHJ, License Board, State agency, whoever, does not see this untapped revenue source - Unrealistic laws <--- some kinda sickness.

I don't know how your AHJ works, but AHJ here is on the State level. Most any rules changes they make have to be included in the State Electrical Act, which must go through State Legislature to be changed. Most of the time this is not a big issue as the Legislature has much more activity that has a higher public interest, but the State Electrical Board still has to manage to get any changes through the legislative process before it becomes law. This primarily makes the Board the responsible party for most of what happens, but they are not cheesy politicians. The board is made up of representatives from electrical professionals of some type ranging from engineers, POCO representatives, contractors, as well as journeyman level representatives. In fact I think it is in the laws that there will be a specific number of representatives from each of these categories on the board.

 

[grasfulls]

Making sense of AHJ's

Making sense of AHJ's

I don't know how your AHJ works, but AHJ here is on the State level. Most any rules changes they make have to be included in the State Electrical Act, which must go through State Legislature to be changed. Most of the time this is not a big issue as the Legislature has much more activity that has a higher public interest, but the State Electrical Board still has to manage to get any changes through the legislative process before it becomes law. This primarily makes the Board the responsible party for most of what happens, but they are not cheesy politicians. The board is made up of representatives from electrical professionals of some type ranging from engineers, POCO representatives, contractors, as well as journeyman level representatives. In fact I think it is in the laws that there will be a specific number of representatives from each of these categories on the board.

The AHJ's here are relative to their local area, and some feel they are inspector gods, most are pretty reasonable. The electrical board here is almost all union electrical people, so they mess with who may train etc. If you are non-union it is next to impossible now to get trainees. I am not trying to start some lousy union non-union thing...it is just a fact. Sheesh, I was a union electrician in 1976, and now I am a non-union contractor, I see plusses for both.

I definitely see that other states really have a great electrical system put together.