code compliance on remodels

[Electron_Sam78]

Where in the '08 code does it say that when remodeling or upgrading/modifying an electrical system or equipment that you have to bring the installation up to code?

We had a subcontractor at work install a new lift station control box but didn't install a equipment grounding conductor. It didn't have one to begin with but I believe they should have made the equipment code compliant. This unit is outside and run from a CB panel in a building 50 feet away. The conductors supplying the lift station are technically feeders I guess since there are CBs inside the control box.

Also what is the section that states that there needs to be a ECG? I don't have my code book with me right now so I haven't even tried to find it.

 

[benaround]

Sam,

Is it a metal conduit from the panel to the control panel ? 250.118

If it is PVC conduit an EGC would be required.

 

[Buck Parrish]

250.32(b) and 250.118 etc...

 

[Electron_Sam78]

well it's all RMC but it had to be extended and I think they extended it in PVC so they painted themselves into a corner if they have to come back and pull an ECG.

Isn't there a code that says you have to bring remodels up to code?

 

[Buck Parrish]

well it's all RMC but it had to be extended and I think they extended it in PVC so they painted themselves into a corner if they have to come back and pull an ECG.

Isn't there a code that says you have to bring remodels up to code?

Yes, we call it the code of "common sense". Burn him on this...

 

[Electron_Sam78]

Oh I thought there was an NEC article about remodels...

I have a feeling I'm going to be installing it then. I work for the government and the guy that handles the contractors doesn't seem to think it'sa big deal. He said "I guess they can just drive aw ground rod there." *sigh

 

[benaround]

Oh I thought there was an NEC article about remodels...

I have a feeling I'm going to be installing it then. I work for the government and the guy that handles the contractors doesn't seem to think it'sa big deal. He said "I guess they can just drive aw ground rod there." *sigh

Well he should get educated because it is a BIG DEAL, this is how people get killed. The

ground rod comment confirms his incompitence.

 

[Electron_Sam78]

I guess what I am looking for is in Annex H 80.9 (C).

 

[pfalcon]

Annex H is not a requirement in most jurisdictions. It has to be called out specifically to be included due to the paragraph at the top.

Even so, 80.9 expresses how I've seen the inspectors in this area interpret. That said, if they saw that you were pulling wire to a new box they would expect that you bring all the wires needed to be compliant.

There's typically also a local code that requires 100% compliant when 40%+ of the wiring is altered.

 

[RICK NAPIER]

If it was all in RMC originally they had a ground and removed it when thay extended it in PVC. You may of had a code compliant condition that they made a violation.

 

[macmikeman]

well it's all RMC but it had to be extended and I think they extended it in PVC so they painted themselves into a corner if they have to come back and pull an ECG.

Isn't there a code that says you have to bring remodels up to code?

If the original was in rmc it was originally grounded. If they extended it with pvc then they disconnected the original grounding means. That is the point that they made a code violation in new work. By doing so they made a present (no grandfathering allowed) code violation. Additionally had the original install been pvc without a ground it still would have been a code violation since inseption and most jurisdictions do not allow for grandfathering of existing code violations, they must get corrected. I'd say you have a clear case of malpractice.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Where in the '08 code does it say that when remodeling or upgrading/modifying an electrical system or equipment that you have to bring the installation up to code?

What you are thinking of is a building code issue. There is a lot of differences from jurisdiction to jurisdiction in regards to renovation/addition/remodeling.
The best and only place you need to look for the answer to this question, is your local building department.

 

[Electron_Sam78]

Annex H is not a requirement in most jurisdictions. It has to be called out specifically to be included due to the paragraph at the top.

I work for the Army Corps of Engineers and I believe we have adopted the 2008 code in its entirety so that should include Annex H. Additionally we are teh AHJ on our property. If it was a big enough deal they'd get the famed Engineers involved but this won't be anything they'd want to make such a fuss about if the contractor wants to try and fight coming back and doing it.

 

[donselectric]

most bldg insp figure if 50% reno you bring it up

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

most bldg insp figure if 50% reno you bring it up

That has changed.

What officials have found out about the 50% rule, was that "Main St USA" was being left in the dust. It was becoming too expensive to renovate these existing buildings, and less expensive to build new.

Of late the building codes are adopting "existing building" codes. There are differences between some of the different building codes, but a lot of them do not even use the term renovation any more.
These newer existing building codes are generally more lenient based on the type of work being performed in existing buildings.

 

[iMuse97]

I work for the Army Corps of Engineers and I believe we have adopted the 2008 code in its entirety so that should include Annex H. Additionally we are teh AHJ on our property. If it was a big enough deal they'd get the famed Engineers involved but this won't be anything they'd want to make such a fuss about if the contractor wants to try and fight coming back and doing it.

I'm not too worried about the famed engineers and whether they want to get twisted up about this; Any electrician worth his license can tell you that something is wrong here, as you've described it.

I'd be concerned about the people who work and/or live on or near the property. This type of issue is why people get killed, this is why our soldiers get shocked, etc.

I'm with MacMike and Rick Napier on this one: if you had RMC and they extended it with PVC, the NEC requires them to extend the ground. 352.60

imho, if these conductors are feeders would not eliminate this requirement; rather, it would emphasize this requirement, because they are not the service entrance conductors.

250.110 and 250.112 could give you additional support.