Code Compliant or Esthetics?

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electricmanscott said:
.

But....

Some people don't want the receptacle and I can't say I blame them. My approach is pretty much do whatever they want. If that includes NOT installng the receptacle then so be it. I let them deal with the inspector.

Rip away......:cool:
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Do you use this same reasoning with Tamper Resistant Receptacles if the customer doesn't want them?

Roger
 
electricmanscott said:
BUT WHAT WOULD YOU DO

I know what you would say but that means didly squat to the customer.
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You have lost me.

Me to customer: I am not calling for inspection until you decide where the receptacle will be located.

I am sure your contract has something about following all codes, I know ours do.
 
electricmanscott said:
Can you (anyone) honestly say that if you are standing there with the customer in front of their fancy schmancy new island debating installation of a receptacle, that you will cut that hole no matter how adamant they are about you not doing it?

I HIGHLY doubt it.
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You're right, I wouldn't cut the hole. I would tell them to call me after the cabinet maker / installer cut the hole in the location they decided on.

Roger
 
SEO said:
Has anybody had any issues with receptacles on islands or peninsular countertop spaces dealing with homeowners that are adamant about not having them?
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Many of my clients have been to Cabinet showrooms, and/or have had Architectural drawings done - they never show outlets - so when I hit them for placements - they give me the "That's not in the plans..." or "the Showroom didn't have any".... :rolleyes:
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I have wired 3 house now that were code compliant and they all burned to the ground. Dang my luck is bad.:grin: The first one was from a candle, the other a wood stove and this last one they think from a battery charger in the garage.

I get to wire 2 of the 3 again-- heck of a way to have job security. :grin:
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Name of your company isn't Burn House Electric is it ?

Perhaps i been luck but far as i know none of mine burned.
 
e57 said:
Many of my clients have been to Cabinet showrooms, and/or have had Architectural drawings done - they never show outlets - so when I hit them for placements - they give me the "That's not in the plans..." or "the Showroom didn't have any".... :rolleyes:
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I've had the honor of some of my work being shown in magazine articles. Rather, my work tends to disappear in the photo spreads. I look at the images and say, "Dang! I know there's an outlet right there......"
 
So....

Electric coffee maker gets set on 'table' but alas, there is no where to plug the thing in. HO grabs extension cord and plugs pot into receptacle that makes it so the cord drapes across the walkway. Toddler in walker happens by and grabs cord, pulling boiling hot coffee down on him or her.

Who is gonna pay when a slick attorney gets informed that compliance to the NEC would have prevented the incident and said attorney finds out who *knew* the installation was out of compliance and built it anyway?

The rules in the NEC are there for a reason. BTW, my sister, age two at the time, was burned by hot coffee in such a manner in 1962 and still has scars from her feet to her waist to prove it.
 
this is not exactly a new requirement, you would think that a cabinet company would be aware of the fact that a receptacle is required on a kitchen island, the location for the receptacle should be part of the design and should be cut out for the electrican when its built.
 
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I would love to say that I would draw a line in the sand ,.. but I can't .

I have committed violations based on cost and convenience .. One recent one,... a little (poor) old lady needed an IBC for an AC and I did not install a sub panel in order to provide AFCI protection,.. not so recently a kitchen counter under a six foot bank of glass ,..HO, GC, EI all pardoned the spacing rule.. who is liable ME .. the inspector is not the AHJ in Mass. , as I understand it ,...and the city has very limited liability.

(Side note on the spacing violation ,..the customer is a lawyer,..yikes!!)

They are measured risks,..I try to avoid them. In this case I would have explained , with all the resources the web can provide , the reasons why , as a professional, I am required to install the receptacle outlet and why ,in terms off responsibility , I want to.. I may even try to get to the inspector first,.. and explain why I want his help on making it compliant ..

If all of this failed ,..I would , most likely,. let it ride and keep the fingers crossed:mad:
 
I must be selfish, I don't see a compelling reason to put myself in a position of additional liability for a customers convenience or happiness.
 
electricmanscott

i would not cut the hole if that is what you are asking, but like iwire said i would not schedule final inspection until it was decided where the receptacle was to be installed, or they could hire somebody else to finish the job and I would take my name off the permit with a letter to the building inspection office stating what work was done by me and what work was not done by me, if you don't have a problem with an inspector passing a job that is not code compliant you should never complain about an inspector failing a job that is code compliant, there is no difference
 
iwire said:
I must be selfish, I don't see a compelling reason to put myself in a position of additional liability for a customers convenience or happiness.
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In Small Town USA word of mouth is very much a part of getting residential work ,.. if I were to refuse to call for an inspection over this it would have a negative impact .

I know some will argue that it could have a positive effect as I would be seen as so ethical and such a professional,... I was able to stand up to everyone involved and shove the receptacle down their throats.. Hurray for the electrician !!! Not gonna happen.

Has anyone installed one of these???? sillites??

StepMixer.jpg
 
Thanx for all the responces on this topic I knew that there were a lot of different issues about island and peninsular receptacle outlet installation . Has anybody ever seen a glass island on a marble floor?
 
K8MHZ said:
So....

Electric coffee maker gets set on 'table' but alas, there is no where to plug the thing in. HO grabs extension cord and plugs pot into receptacle that makes it so the cord drapes across the walkway. Toddler in walker happens by and grabs cord, pulling boiling hot coffee down on him or her.

Who is gonna pay when a slick attorney gets informed that compliance to the NEC would have prevented the incident and said attorney finds out who *knew* the installation was out of compliance and built it anyway?

The rules in the NEC are there for a reason. BTW, my sister, age two at the time, was burned by hot coffee in such a manner in 1962 and still has scars from her feet to her waist to prove it.
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The customer is just as liable for being stupid enough to use a cord.Very few if any kitchen appliances would not come with instructions saying no cords.The risk of what happened would be just as bad had the island had a receptacle on the side.NEC made an attempt to solve a problem and it can be argued that they infact created a bigger hazard by putting receptacles under the lip of the island.Accidents will happen,all part of life.Personally i would rather not see recepts at islands.

Now in todays sue happy world if an accident happens because this outlet was not there ,they will go after the EC ,inspector,GC,cabinet maker,installer,the mfg of the cord,home depot (for selling it) and anyone else they can think of exsept themself for doing something crazy like using a cord.

What do you think happens if the receptacles was there and a 3 year old grabs the cord and pulls it off the island.They get sharp lawyer that sues anyways but this time he goes after nec as well.
 
What would you do?

What would you do?

electricmanscott said:
Can you (anyone) honestly say that if you are standing there with the customer in front of their fancy schmancy new island debating installation of a receptacle, that you will cut that hole no matter how adamant they are about you not doing it?

I HIGHLY doubt it.
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I have run into this problem a few times on high end houses around here where the home owner doesn't want something that NEC requires. What I've always done is try to explain to them what is required and why. If that doesn't work I explain to them after years of dealing with the same group of inspectors that it will have to be installed for the final to pass and while we're doing the rough in it's part of the bid and if we have to do it after the final inspection they will have to pay T&M plus the reinspection fee. So to answer your question,, no I wouldn't cut a hole in their high dollar cabinet, HOWEVER,, knowing the inspectors here, I would run the wiring for the devices to a convienient J-box and wait for the owners to call me back to do it.


J.S.Harvey
 
iwire said:
I must be selfish, I don't see a compelling reason to put myself in a position of additional liability for a customers convenience or happiness.
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Bob, you don't deal with the type of work, customers, or situations that we encounter in the residential market, it isn't easy.

If you don't think you put yourself in a postion of liability just by walking in the door you are nuts. :grin: (see station nightclub fire)

I am not a cutomer kiss ass but they write the check and I realy don't have a problem not installing this required receptacle. As I mentioned I call in the inspection and tell the homeowner to be there to deal with the inspector.

Guess what else I did. I installed a bunch of fixtures in an old house wired with crappy old bx. The conductors were certainly not rated for 90c but do you really think I am going to tell people they have to rewire their house in order to have some new light fixtures? Ain't going to happen.

Yes I knowingly have violated the code and will do so again. Anybody that says they have not is a LIAR.

It is easy to say here "this is what has to be done" or "you don't have a choice" but it is not that black and white out in....you guessed it "The real world..."
 
electricmanscott said:
Apples and oranges
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So you are saying that you should be allowed to selectively pick what part of the code you want to ignore and be able to do so.

Hmmm, that is a great concept but it is not real, the receptacle is required whether the owner likes it or not.

Roger
 
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