Code violation to speak code?

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I think Home Depot is leaving themselves open to litigation, and, as things are today with lawsuits, people sue everybody and anybody that had anything to do with it. Unless you have sufficient liability insurance to protect you against such suits, I would advise not to do it.
 
My former boss is a PE. On a jobsite the cleanest way to route some wire/cable was to drill a hole near the top of a 4" square column, then one at the bottom for the device. He agreed it would look the best but REFUSED to endorse/approve it because he would be responsible if ANYTHING happened and it came back to the two holes in the column. We ended up running emt, and the painter did the rest--painted it to match.
I learned the lesson to NOT be so quick to give advice, even if I know the correct answer. There could be other consequences.
 
tom baker said:
But at the big boxes stores I have seen demo boards, wired with service panels, receptacles, etc.
Is that not giving advice?
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At the local Home depot on Broad street and glenside They had a wall upwith 3 ways and a receptacle and a small subpanel. It fed by 2/2/2/2/ ser.

There was no ground bar in the panel, they had the EGC and the grounded conductor on the same bar in the panel,and bonded to the panel. I told them
EVERYTIME I went in there that it was wrong. It took about a year, but eventually they added a ground bar and unbonded the neutral from the can.
 
mcclary's electrical said:
At the local Home depot on Broad street and glenside They had a wall upwith 3 ways and a receptacle and a small subpanel. It fed by 2/2/2/2/ ser.

There was no ground bar in the panel, they had the EGC and the grounded conductor on the same bar in the panel,and bonded to the panel. I told them
EVERYTIME I went in there that it was wrong. It took about a year, but eventually they added a ground bar and unbonded the neutral from the can.
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I saw one like that in Georgia a few years ago, I told them and assumed that they wouldn't change it so I wrote a letter, I think to a coporate address. A few months later I went in again & it was fixed.
 
iwire said:
I hope that does not happen in my lifetime.

Probably should prohibit people from cooking their own food as well.
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I was at the meat counter the other day, and this lady is quizzing the Butcher on how to cook lamb chops... "Most people like it still a little pink in the middle - but by law, I have to tell you to burn it right through..."
 
I think most of you are going way overboard. Most every box store I have visited did give advice. From services to MWBC's. I also have witnessed bad information being freely distributed.
I see this as no different than any code instructor payed to do his job and teaching uninformed students. Even when Mr. Holt holds a seminar does he make sure everyone in the class is a licensed electrician or has them sign a waiver to protect himself from good and bad advice? Where do you draw the line on WHO can give advice and where they can give it. I would hope the OP would help the customer to the best of his ability without breaking store policy. I for one have no problem helping someone when I have the opportunity.
 
A while back I'm sure a few of you might remember I did a little PDF about K&T - posted it on my site - linked to it here..... Then while tooling around on my site stats I found it was linked to some 'Old House' forum, (Not "This Old House" of PBS - "Old House" a little looser DYI site...) and tracked down the discussion of it to intervene... The paper I wrote was not for persons without an understanding of the code, or without a base knowedge of electrical connstruction & experiance. Anyway I renamed the link - and only have it up for discussion in appropriate places and take it back down shortly afterwards now...

Any - my point is there is plenty of bad advice in various places on the internet, and even good advice in the wrong hands is just as bad. I'm sure quite a few of us have seen work that it looked like it was told to someone over the phone. The words describe just that - but the result is bizarre. ;)
 
John Valdes said:
I think most of you are going way overboard. Most every box store I have visited did give advice. From services to MWBC's. I also have witnessed bad information being freely distributed.
I see this as no different than any code instructor payed to do his job and teaching uninformed students. Even when Mr. Holt holds a seminar does he make sure everyone in the class is a licensed electrician or has them sign a waiver to protect himself from good and bad advice? Where do you draw the line on WHO can give advice and where they can give it. I would hope the OP would help the customer to the best of his ability without breaking store policy. I for one have no problem helping someone when I have the opportunity.
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Then be pepaired to end up in court. In todays world giving directions that turn south can land you problems. The point is most that give instructions and advice are not qualified. The customer is mislead by thinking they got advice from an electrician.
 
iwire said:
Can you provide an example?
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No but i am sure if you go to your local court house you can find plenty of records of what looks like stupid lawsuits. Lawyers will take any case that they think they can bleed some money out of. Even if you win it will cost you time and money to fight it. Hot coffee landed McDonalds in court. Choice is yours as to who you give advice to. Let some kid die in a fire over bad advice from the guy at big orange and see what happens. Even good correct advice can go south because you did not see the job and miss a few details.
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
No but i am sure if you go to your local court house you can find plenty of records of what looks like stupid lawsuits. Lawyers will take any case that they think they can bleed some money out of.
Even if you win it will cost you time and money to fight it. Hot coffee landed McDonalds in court. Choice is yours as to who you give advice to. Let some kid die in a fire over bad advice from the guy at big orange and see what happens. Even good correct advice can go south because you did not see the job and miss a few details.
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You are the one saying its true, find some examples of people giving DIYS electrical advice and ending up in court over it.

I think you are blowing a simple thing way out of proportion.

The bottom line is the big box stores have MUCH MORE legal experience with this than you and I ever will.

They have been giving DIYs advice long enough to know what to expect as far as liability.
 
Bob, all i am doing is giving my opinion. Yours is just that. All the OP asked is if it's a violation of NEC and no it's not. I have no need to prove anything. Hopefully nobody here ever gets sued over advice given free. Do keep in mind that Mike Holt sees the potential of giving advice on this site and took what legal measures his lawyer suggested. Am sure each big orange or blue has its own policy on advice and it will not be my problem if it goes bad for them.
 
augie47 said:
I'm sure they are acting on advice of their leagl team and, as much as it might hurt, as their employee follow their rules.
Conjecture on my part would be that if you give any advice it may open a window for litigation.
Without actually seeing the install, advice you thought was in order, might end up being incorrect.
"The guy at _____ told me 2/0 was the right size".
"sometimes it is" :)

Plus they will swear thats the way "you" instructed... even though what they heard is not what you said.
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You are right on target with this information.I never like to give advice on a job I have not seen , because of the reasons you stated
 
Liability, liability, liability! I once was in a big box where they had a display showing what lights come on with different incorrectly wired receptacles using a plug in tester. The display used metal UT boxes mounted to a wood backboard. They used open wiring between the boxes, and one receptacle was labeled "Ground and Hot reversed" This was cord and plug connected, and was setting on a table in the aisle easily acessable to any customer or kid! Yes, the metal UT box was live! Unplugged the display and told the manager. Went back two weeks later, display was plugged back in. I'm well known over at coporate, so when I called store maintance and told them about the display, they told me to cut the cord off the display and they would take care of the manager. The display was gone the next day.
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
Bob, all i am doing is giving my opinion. Yours is just that. All the OP asked is if it's a violation of NEC and no it's not. I have no need to prove anything. Hopefully nobody here ever gets sued over advice given free. Do keep in mind that Mike Holt sees the potential of giving advice on this site and took what legal measures his lawyer suggested. Am sure each big orange or blue has its own policy on advice and it will not be my problem if it goes bad for them.
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Jim you are well entitled to your opinion but with 100s of stores across the US I feel very certain the big box stores know more them either of us what liability they expose themselves to. You know as well as I do they will have a number of corporate lawyers keeping an eye on things and making sure each store follows the laws for their state.

People write books, produce TV shows, etc about how to do absolutely anything. If lawsuits where as much as problem as you seem to think they are the writers, producers and publishers would stop making these instructional videos.

I have a home carpentry book that shows how to build an entire home from the foundation up. What if I get hurt following the instructions?

What if I only follow part of the book and the porch collapses and kills someone?
 
iwire said:
You are the one saying its true, find some examples of people giving DIYS electrical advice and ending up in court over it.

I think you are blowing a simple thing way out of proportion.

The bottom line is the big box stores have MUCH MORE legal experience with this than you and I ever will.

They have been giving DIYs advice long enough to know what to expect as far as liability.
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Agreed! This is much to do about nothing, besides on the application the OP filled out don't they ask if you have experience in the department applied for. And besides working in said department (electrical) you are there to help the customer DIY or Electrician, as long as you don't whip out your code book and have the DIYs pull up an orange bucket while you give out NEC code refrence, GEEZ I don't think telling someone to take a left turn when you meant a right turn will lead to you being put on death row over it, are we becoming that paronoid over trival things:roll:. And like its been said before if HD says don't quote NEC code THEN DON'T DO IT for crying out loud! Giving advice, nothing wrong with that, if a DIY installs the electrical wrong and burns his house down then that will be between him and his insurance company and will have nothing to do with the guy working at HD.
 
hillbilly1 said:
Liability, liability, liability! I once was in a big box where they had a display showing what lights come on with different incorrectly wired receptacles using a plug in tester. The display used metal UT boxes mounted to a wood backboard. They used open wiring between the boxes, and one receptacle was labeled "Ground and Hot reversed" This was cord and plug connected, and was setting on a table in the aisle easily acessable to any customer or kid! Yes, the metal UT box was live! Unplugged the display and told the manager. Went back two weeks later, display was plugged back in. I'm well known over at coporate, so when I called store maintance and told them about the display, they told me to cut the cord off the display and they would take care of the manager. The display was gone the next day.
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Would'nt that be considered vandalism if you just go into a store and start moving things around and unplugging diplays, if i was the manager of the store and seen someone messing with my displays I would call the police. Paronoia stikes again!
 
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