Code violation to speak code?

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petersonra said:
You get to do what your employer tells you to do. They are paying you. If you have an issue with that, you should find employment elsewhere.
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It really is that simple.

I know that sounds harsh, but I don't get the concept of being hired by someone and thinking you have some right to do the job differently than your employer wants it done.
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I don't think it is harsh I think it is just right.
 
tom baker said:
But at the big boxes stores I have seen demo boards, wired with service panels, receptacles, etc.
Is that not giving advice?
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I agree I am not advocating giving advice but on the other hand saying that giving advice will get you in a law suite is over the top. Stores do this all the time. Even in the slim chance you do get in a lawsuite you will most likely win. Where is the proof that your "advice" was followed correctly, or that you even gave advice. Your word against theirs. He said she said. Did the customer record you? Did you officially claim you are the "expert". A winning law suit in one department would mean any bad advice from any Big box asociate would warrant a winning law suit.
 
I think it's great that they hired licensed men,that is step in right direction. Does not change where they stand if advice is wrong. The license only proves they attempted to get you profeshional advice. As with any job if you disagree with the boss you best pack up your tools. I have done this a few times in my years. Usually it does not take but a few days before you know you made a mistake .
 
The fact is even if you give them advice they are not going to wire it to code. You're just wasting air. Most of them are going to cobble something together and hope it works. The only time I'd give advice is if they are undersizing wire. You can't get in any trouble for upsizing it either.
 
lunalilo said:
You guys probably don't know this but I work at Home Depot part time, and despite by "above average" knowledge in electrical, and above average experience being an apprentice, I am being told time and time again that I should not tell people code. I have a few problems with this statement:

1) Because they tell me to tell the customer "how to wire things up", and various other things like "A GFCI goes in wet places". If I am allowed this much "code things" than why not others that I know?

2) If I know someone if wiring it wrong or installing the wrong thing, and I know this, I should tell them right? I mean, it's like a person about to fall in a hole covered with leaves(that they wouldn't mind knowing about) and I know it's there.

I need your guys opinion about this matter, should I go with the flow, or just suck it up and pout, and watch them install something incorrectly and against code?
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My experience is that few people doing it themselves actually care about code. I saw a major disaster in the works at an HD once. The guy was buying #14 for a water heater. I corrected his choice. He later doubled back and bought #14 instead of #10. I can't blame him...it was cheaper..though I wonder if the house burned down since he said the last #14 had melted. You can't make people learn. Plkus his sneaking around showed he understood but opted out from real code advice.

We all see violations every day. You can't protect everyone. You definitely can't protect people from themselves. Suck it up and follow policy. The HD I deal with alot has a no code policy. You are only selling bullets....not guns. None of us can control what is done with the bullets.

Until they regulate (all) building related materials, the DIY's will continue to botch things....and once in a while get them right.

c2500
 
iWire,

Right on!

IMO,
It is a "Contractual" issue between the Store and the Employee.

To the issue of "Winning" the lawsuit:
you will Loose Your Shirt and the job
proving that you were right.

If you want to give advice on your own "right knowledge",
then earn a Masters License, do the insurance and make contracts.
 
c2500 said:
My experience is that few people doing it themselves actually care about code.
. . . wire . . . had melted.
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Worked a short season at a HD.
(1) Had a customer come in
with a burned, scorched , stretched out piece of #12 Romex.
(2) He had run this overhead from house to shack
for his 50 Amp heater device.
(3) He insisted on six feet of NEW #12 Romex and six Wire-Nuts.

I save the burned romex as a souvenir keep-sake.
It goes in my collection of burned-out aluminum joints,
and the partially melted Kearney.

The point is:
Do what your employer has contracted you to do.
 
Be sure you understand one thing. While if they sue because of wrong advice and likely only go after HD a smart lawyer today goes after all parties involved. You just could find yourself needing to hire a lawyer for defending you on a wrongful death charge. Jury in todays world make some stupid judgements.
Getting a masters license is great but keep in mind what the license allows you to do. Masters license and insurance is to cover the work you and your men do. Get sued cause your teaching code and your not covered.
From what has been said here the HD rules seem to change from store to store rather than a corporate rule.

This is not a cut and dry issue. Yes if your seeing the customer is making a clear mistake by buying #12 for a 50 amp load i would hope you try to to stop them. But now they want to know what size they need. That is where you begin to have problems since you can not see the job. Now there is voltage drop, location, 100% or 125% factor. If i was working there i would be careful.

Have any of you ever seen a copy of NEC either for store use or for sale to the customer ?
They want to sell you a HOW TO WIRE book for $20 and that leaves a customer with the idea that he is now an LEKTRICAN
 
K8MHZ said:
It must be a local store policy.

The manager of the electrical department at our HD is a licensed Master and teaches code upgrade classes. I know he isn't forbidden to talk about the code because we do it all the time.
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The guy at our local HD "thinks" he's a master and should be teaching code, the only problem is, he's wrong half the time. I've never seen him at a code update class.
 
iwire said:
I hope that does not happen in my lifetime.

Probably should prohibit people from cooking their own food as well.
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No, that is not what I mean. I am sure that some people should not be allowed to cook their own food as they are not qualified to cook their own in a safe manner. There are people who attempt to do their own repairs to their home...whatever trade that it may fall under...that are completely unqualified for the task. This is a double edged sword. Should people be allowed to practice a profession for which they have no training? Yes...we should have the freedom to do whatever we want. No...ignorance can be deadly.

My comment was until we are regulated to the point we cannot do what we want..take buying freon as an example...people will still be allowed to be stupid. Try as we might, we cannot regulate stupid...ignorant..or general cheapness for that matter.

My comment was to say that until the government regulates what we do...as electricians.....people will be able to buy the parts and pieces that may very well result in the death or injury of their loved ones. Then again, they may buy the parts and pieces that protect their loved ones.

The bottom line is there are many uneducated people doing electrical work. This has danger written all over it. You can preach code to them and they do not care. Then there are some people who do care and follow code with the logic it is there for a reason. I have seen both types and was not advocating a world where only the licensed can buy goods. (Though it does have some logical sense behind it as well as seeming a bit communistic too.....food for thought without taking a side.)

c2500
 
lunalilo said:
You guys probably don't know this but I work at Home Depot part time, and despite by "above average" knowledge in electrical, and above average experience being an apprentice, I am being told time and time again that I should not tell people code. I have a few problems with this statement:

1) Because they tell me to tell the customer "how to wire things up", and various other things like "A GFCI goes in wet places". If I am allowed this much "code things" than why not others that I know?

2) If I know someone if wiring it wrong or installing the wrong thing, and I know this, I should tell them right? I mean, it's like a person about to fall in a hole covered with leaves(that they wouldn't mind knowing about) and I know it's there.

I need your guys opinion about this matter, should I go with the flow, or just suck it up and pout, and watch them install something incorrectly and against code?
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NEC does not in itself say what we can or can not say or teach. What your doing in my opinion is teaching and giving instructions on how to install and what materials to use.
Being your doing this while being paid by HD puts some liability on both you and HD. As i am sure by now you understand the concern here. Having not seen the job your making calls on.
Would a doctor prescribe medication over the phone without first seeing you ? No because of liability. A recent office visit to my doctor turned up very high blood presure. I had no idea it had suddenly went up and yes often check myself at walmart so was surprised. Point being is your customers often do not understand what they are getting into so unlikely to be able to give you all the needed information that an electrician needs.
You just might end up getting them killed. It from liability issue is best that you tell them they should call an electrician if they do not know what to buy. From HD view that would result in a no sale. Up to them who they hire and how good there lawyer is.
 
qcroanoke said:
I agree.
As much as you want to save people from themselves sometimes it will only end up getting you in trouble and maybe a courtroom.
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Just a couple of questions to ponder.

Does anyone know of any big box employee that has ever been dragged into court because of the advise he or she has given out to a customer?

Do you ever hear of somebody suing the NAPA parts man for selling a set of brake pads to a customer and then having the customer wreck their car because they put them on wrong?

What about the Toyota salesman that sold the cars with the sticking gas pedal that killed a few people? Did he end up in court on wrongful death charges because he told the customers that Toyota cars where safe when they bought one for him?

I don't think so.

The bottom line is if the boss says no NEC, then no NEC or find another job.
 
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stevenje said:
Just a couple of questions to ponder.

Does anyone know of any big box employee that has ever been dragged into court because of the advise he or she has given out to a customer?

Do you ever hear of somebody suing the NAPA parts man for selling a set of brake pads to a customer and then having the customer wreck their car because they put them on wrong?

What about the Toyota salesman that sold the cars with the sticking gas pedal that killed a few people? Did he end up in court on wrongful death charges because he told the customers that Toyota cars where safe when they bought one for him?

I don't think so.

The bottom line is if the boss says no NEC, then no NEC or find another job.
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Lawsuits like that seldom happened years ago but now lawyers even go after HOT COFFEE.
As to Toyota i don't think you could place the blame on the salesman unless you could prove he knowed about the problem before the sale.
And for anyone that does not know it yet ,that problem is not limited to cars. My AC man that helps me keep my units up for the club had bought the tundra model. His choice was a mobile home or a tree. Truck was totalled. Scary part is i went on several service calls with him in that truck. Its going to court because insurance only covered what was owed to bank because the value dropped $7,000 because of the bad name.
 
stevenje said:
My point is that the lawyers for the customer who was burned with the hot coffee didn't go after the drive-through employee for selling coffee that was to hot, they went after the corporation (Mc Donalds).
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Yes because McDonalds has millions. Going after the min wage employee and getting judgement would not be worth it.
Now if by chance the employee at McDONALDS or HD has something they could go after them. Same as if your in a car wreck and they are at fault and no insurance. Sure you can go after them but you will not see a dime. All depends on what your worth. I am far from rich but worth enough that i don't want sued.
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
I am far from rich but worth enough that i don't want sued.
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I'm with you there. I don't have much but what I got I worked hard for. I sure don't want to get myself in a situation that I put it all at risk. So I won't be quoting the NEC when in a big box store and I won't be working the drive-through at Micky-D's. I take that back. If this industry doesn't turn around soon, I might end up behind the counter! Ketchup with those fries sir? ;)
 
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