Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
- Thread starter bphgravity
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ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
Why are you defining kitchen from websters when it is defined in the code? :roll:
Thats like defining accessible from websters and applying it, even though it is defined in article 100!
Why are you defining kitchen from websters when it is defined in the code? :roll:
Thats like defining accessible from websters and applying it, even though it is defined in article 100!
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
When Bryan made his post there were a couple of things that I thought needed looking at.
The definition of kitchen as outlined in article 210.8 (B):
My opinion is that this should be treated as a kitchen and the required GFCI protection installed.
When Bryan made his post there were a couple of things that I thought needed looking at.
Here we find appliances that are found in any commercial kitchen. This equipment is used for storing, preparing and heating food.
Here we find more equipment and a sink that is in the same area as the counter where food is being prepared.
This tells me that there is more than one equipment grounding conductor therefore it is not cord and plug connected. It also tells me that these grounds should to be run all the way back to the panel.
The definition of kitchen as outlined in article 210.8 (B):
Then Bryan asks;
Mr. Bryan the way that I see this is that there is an area with a sink that food is being prepared heated and served so by definition I think this is a kitchen.
I know that this area will be required to be cleaned and mopped and water will be all around.
My opinion is that this should be treated as a kitchen and the required GFCI protection installed.
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
[ May 27, 2005, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
Now I know that you did not mean to say that. If it is called a kitchen by who ever owns it then it is a kitchen no matter what is installed. Right?
[ May 27, 2005, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
When in doubt, protect it, IMO.
Can't you put a GFI on an IG circuit?
When in doubt, protect it, IMO.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
Originally posted by jwelectric:
Now I know that you did not mean to say that. If it is called a kitchen by who ever owns it then it is a kitchen no matter what is installed. Right?
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
If all of the equipment used to prepare the food or drink is cord and plug connected, then in my opinion, it is not a kitchen. Cord and plug connected equipment is not a "permanent" provision for food preparation.
Don
If all of the equipment used to prepare the food or drink is cord and plug connected, then in my opinion, it is not a kitchen. Cord and plug connected equipment is not a "permanent" provision for food preparation.
Don
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
Don, my range is cord and plug connected, it is never removed.
Don, my range is cord and plug connected, it is never removed.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
Bob,
Then you don't live in a dwelling unit as your provision for cooking is not permanent.
Don
Bob,
Then you don't live in a dwelling unit as your provision for cooking is not permanent.
Don
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
If we are voting, I say it is not a kitchen.
If we are voting, I say it is not a kitchen.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
Not a kitchen.
Not a kitchen.
aelectricalman
Senior Member
- Location
- KY
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
Kitchen
Kitchen
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
One of the arguments that I have read in this thread is the fact that these appliances are not permanently installed. I would contend that the coffee pots would have the water supply piped to them thus this would make them fastened in place.
The phrase permanent I would view different than anchored or fastened in place.
The fact that this coffee shop is a business and expected to be in business for a long period of time and not a temporary business would lead me to think that it is for permanent use. These appliances will be used for an extended period of time each and every day for the purpose of profit and not used periodically as the coffee pot and microwave oven in a motel room.
I must stand on the decision that this is a commercial kitchen.
One of the arguments that I have read in this thread is the fact that these appliances are not permanently installed. I would contend that the coffee pots would have the water supply piped to them thus this would make them fastened in place.
The phrase permanent I would view different than anchored or fastened in place.
The fact that this coffee shop is a business and expected to be in business for a long period of time and not a temporary business would lead me to think that it is for permanent use. These appliances will be used for an extended period of time each and every day for the purpose of profit and not used periodically as the coffee pot and microwave oven in a motel room.
I must stand on the decision that this is a commercial kitchen.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
Seriously when I read the the requirement the method of connection does not enter into my mind.
IMO, the term "permanent facilities" for cooking has nothing to do with how the equipment is connected, only that it will always be there.
Take McDonald's for instance, as I recall all the cooking equipment in McDonald's is cord and plug connected, gas lines have quick connects and the equipment is on wheels.
Does this mean McDonald's does not have a kitchen and does not need GFCI protection?
Seriously when I read the the requirement the method of connection does not enter into my mind.
IMO, the term "permanent facilities" for cooking has nothing to do with how the equipment is connected, only that it will always be there.
Take McDonald's for instance, as I recall all the cooking equipment in McDonald's is cord and plug connected, gas lines have quick connects and the equipment is on wheels.
Does this mean McDonald's does not have a kitchen and does not need GFCI protection?
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
A student sent me this e-mail so I will post it here for your debate;
Mike
I am a member of a hunting club and our cabin will sleep twenty people. We have a wood cook stove and carry water in for doing the dishes. Only the bath has heat due to the large area to be heated we heat with wood and don?t want the pipes to freeze. Should the outlets in this kitchen even the ones for the counters be gfcis.
Bill
???
[ May 28, 2005, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
A student sent me this e-mail so I will post it here for your debate;
Mike
I am a member of a hunting club and our cabin will sleep twenty people. We have a wood cook stove and carry water in for doing the dishes. Only the bath has heat due to the large area to be heated we heat with wood and don?t want the pipes to freeze. Should the outlets in this kitchen even the ones for the counters be gfcis.
Bill
???
[ May 28, 2005, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
I was thinking the same thing last night.Wanted to interject in this conversation, but really couldn't remeber for sure..
But I thought I had remeber seeing one of their pieces of equipment,-(the deep-frier?)-in the standing at their front counter ordering a burger,that did in fact have "large locking casters" on the bottom of the equipment.. (good call man!)
Darn it iwire,
I was thinking the same thing last night.Wanted to interject in this conversation, but really couldn't remeber for sure..
But I thought I had remeber seeing one of their pieces of equipment,-(the deep-frier?)-in the standing at their front counter ordering a burger,that did in fact have "large locking casters" on the bottom of the equipment..
(good call man!)
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
I'd think that even if the cabin has twenty bedrooms, it still sounds like a dwelling unit. I'd say the area is either zoned Ag or Residential, not commercial.
Weird to have electric in a cabin and still haul water in. They should just install an outdoor hydrant indoors and save a trip outside.
Sounds like 20 guys sleeping on the floor of a cabin.Originally posted by jwelectric:
I am a member of a hunting club and our cabin will sleep twenty people. We have a wood cook stove and carry water in for doing the dishes.
...
Would this be considered a commercial kitchen?
I'd think that even if the cabin has twenty bedrooms, it still sounds like a dwelling unit. I'd say the area is either zoned Ag or Residential, not commercial.
Weird to have electric in a cabin and still haul water in. They should just install an outdoor hydrant indoors and save a trip outside.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
Bob,
Don
[ May 28, 2005, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: don_resqcapt19 ]
Bob,
If I was McDonalds it would.
Don
[ May 28, 2005, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: don_resqcapt19 ]
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
"Permanent" is not the correct word for use in these code sections. Nothing is really "permanent" if that means that the object will always be there. I can't imagine that any cord and plug connected equipment that is on wheels can ever be considered "permanent".
What about a hotel room with a cord connected microwave that is fastened to the countertop or inside of the cabinet? Is that a "permanent" provision for cooking? If so then the "guest room" or "guest suite" has just become a "dwelling unit".
"Permanent" is not the correct word for use in these code sections. Nothing is really "permanent" if that means that the object will always be there. I can't imagine that any cord and plug connected equipment that is on wheels can ever be considered "permanent".
What about a hotel room with a cord connected microwave that is fastened to the countertop or inside of the cabinet? Is that a "permanent" provision for cooking? If so then the "guest room" or "guest suite" has just become a "dwelling unit".
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