Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
- Thread starter bphgravity
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charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
Isn't it nice that everything is black and white? This looks like a good opportunity for someone to write a definition of permanent as applied to commercial kitchens.
Isn't it nice that everything is black and white? This looks like a good opportunity for someone to write a definition of permanent as applied to commercial kitchens.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
I have no doubt about that.
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
-back to original post "toaster"..
Think about it,if being your coffee bar..Would you let the "general public" put their hands,in this..
-(Hot-object)-?
And if you toast/brown,(cook) it for them,did you not just prepare this "Bagel" for them,for their consumption at some degree?
I'm agreeing in fact of having to see this operation for perfect judgement call,but in the "laymen's terms"....It does fit..
[ May 28, 2005, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]
-back to original post "toaster"..
Think about it,if being your coffee bar..Would you let the "general public" put their hands,in this..
-(Hot-object)-?
And if you toast/brown,(cook) it for them,did you not just prepare this "Bagel" for them,for their consumption at some degree?
I'm agreeing in fact of having to see this operation for perfect judgement call,but in the "laymen's terms"....It does fit..
[ May 28, 2005, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]
aelectricalman
Senior Member
- Location
- KY
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
I think the code should be reworked to include "a room dedicated to preparing food" and the "perminent" phase needs to be changed to any appliances that are "stationary for 80% of the time" or something along this guidelines.
I think the code should be reworked to include "a room dedicated to preparing food" and the "perminent" phase needs to be changed to any appliances that are "stationary for 80% of the time" or something along this guidelines.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
I don't know if it's plastic, man. Me and my buddies got all fruit-buzzed last night, man. I think they spiked the walnuts.
I don't know if it's plastic, man. Me and my buddies got all fruit-buzzed last night, man. I think they spiked the walnuts.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
JW never said they had electricity.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
Don
"If all of the equipment used to prepare the food or drink is cord and plug connected, then in my opinion, it is not a kitchen. Cord and plug connected equipment is not a "permanent" provision for food preparation.
Don"
I do not entirely agree with that statement, as a UL listed range with a cord connection for dwellings will be considered a permanent cooking facility- as I believe the supply to the receptacle is permanent.
Back to the original question, using the '05 NEC, I do not believe this could be considered a kitchen. Countertop cord and plug connected microwaves are not permanent means of cooking.
Is it a food preperation area, absolutely. But I can prepare the same food for a party with a temporary setup in on my backyard porch, and it would not become a kitchen.
It is UL listed. I would bet that the listing for this may be as for the different components, but not for an "assembly" of the components - just a guess.
I forgot to add: would I require GFCI protection, no. Would I add GFCI protection, as an electrician, with all of the liability, it would not hurt or cost much to add GFCI protection, so yes .
[ May 29, 2005, 07:59 AM: Message edited by: pierre ]
Don
"If all of the equipment used to prepare the food or drink is cord and plug connected, then in my opinion, it is not a kitchen. Cord and plug connected equipment is not a "permanent" provision for food preparation.
Don"
I do not entirely agree with that statement, as a UL listed range with a cord connection for dwellings will be considered a permanent cooking facility- as I believe the supply to the receptacle is permanent.
Back to the original question, using the '05 NEC, I do not believe this could be considered a kitchen. Countertop cord and plug connected microwaves are not permanent means of cooking.
Is it a food preperation area, absolutely. But I can prepare the same food for a party with a temporary setup in on my backyard porch, and it would not become a kitchen.
It is UL listed. I would bet that the listing for this may be as for the different components, but not for an "assembly" of the components - just a guess.
I forgot to add: would I require GFCI protection, no. Would I add GFCI protection, as an electrician, with all of the liability, it would not hurt or cost much to add GFCI protection, so yes
.[ May 29, 2005, 07:59 AM: Message edited by: pierre ]
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
Dwelling ranges are required by the manufacturer to have an "anti-tipping" device, which basically bolts the unit to the floor. In my opinion, that tells me that it is permanant.
Microwaves might be a different issue...I don't think a counter top microwave is permanant, but I think if you bolt the microwave above the range it is permanant.
Dwelling ranges are required by the manufacturer to have an "anti-tipping" device, which basically bolts the unit to the floor. In my opinion, that tells me that it is permanant.
Microwaves might be a different issue...I don't think a counter top microwave is permanant, but I think if you bolt the microwave above the range it is permanant.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
I have to agree with Don, no appliance is "permanent".
Fastened in place or sitting on a counter.
I have to agree with Don, no appliance is "permanent".
Fastened in place or sitting on a counter.
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
I see Don's point, however I don't agree with it 100%.
Its funny, we talk about the legal ramifications of the roles we all play. Representing McDonald's, I can see how none of them are permanant. Representing an electrician in a law suit where someone died in a kitchen, I think it would be hard to convince 12 angry men that a deep fat fryer is only temporary, not permanant.
I see Don's point, however I don't agree with it 100%.
Its funny, we talk about the legal ramifications of the roles we all play. Representing McDonald's, I can see how none of them are permanant. Representing an electrician in a law suit where someone died in a kitchen, I think it would be hard to convince 12 angry men that a deep fat fryer is only temporary, not permanant.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
This statement makes me wonder, if these devices, permanent or not, are so inherently dangerous, than why would we allow them in any circumstance, without GFCI protection at all?
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
All I am saying Ryan is I think Don is correct that the word 'permanent' was a poor choice for this section.
All I am saying Ryan is I think Don is correct that the word 'permanent' was a poor choice for this section.
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
And I agree.
aelectricalman
Senior Member
- Location
- KY
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
Do what? I've never heard of this.
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
Range manufacturers adhere to the stability requirements found in both the Underwriters Laboratories (UL) 858 Household Electric Range Safety Standard (Section 33) and the ANSI Z21.1 Household Gas Range Safety Standard (Section 1.6). These standards require that ranges manufactured after 1991 not tip with 250 pounds or less on the door or drawer for five minutes. To meet this standard, manufacturers provide brackets with each range that must be used for securing the range to a wall, floor or cabinet structure.
Range manufacturers adhere to the stability requirements found in both the Underwriters Laboratories (UL) 858 Household Electric Range Safety Standard (Section 33) and the ANSI Z21.1 Household Gas Range Safety Standard (Section 1.6). These standards require that ranges manufactured after 1991 not tip with 250 pounds or less on the door or drawer for five minutes. To meet this standard, manufacturers provide brackets with each range that must be used for securing the range to a wall, floor or cabinet structure.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
Chris
That would be the package with the metal 90 degree angle piece that is suppose to bolt into the floor/wall and screw onto the back of the range.
When the range door is open, it may become front heavy, and some have tipped in the past, creating the need for securing the range.
It comes in the package that the homeowner or the builder throws away.
Chris
That would be the package with the metal 90 degree angle piece that is suppose to bolt into the floor/wall and screw onto the back of the range.
When the range door is open, it may become front heavy, and some have tipped in the past, creating the need for securing the range.
It comes in the package that the homeowner or the builder throws away.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?
Come to think of it, I do believe I've seen that bracket used. Since I never actually install the range (we just sometimes hook up the tail), it's easy to overlook. I have seen it in those unhappy cases where the range outlet ends up in a position where the range won't slide back to the wall, forcing us to come back and move it.
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