Coffee Bar a Kitchen?

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Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?

Originally posted by don_resqcapt19:

What about a hotel room with a cord connected microwave that is fastened to the countertop or inside of the cabinet? Is that a "permanent" provision for cooking? If so then the "guest room" or "guest suite" has just become a "dwelling unit".
You mean 210.60, subject to the requirements of 210.52(B) Don-("shakey ground watch that footing")- ;)

[ May 28, 2005, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]
 
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?

Isn't it nice that everything is black and white? This looks like a good opportunity for someone to write a definition of permanent as applied to commercial kitchens. :D
 
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?

-back to original post "toaster"..

Think about it,if being your coffee bar..Would you let the "general public" put their hands,in this..
-(Hot-object)-?

And if you toast/brown,(cook) it for them,did you not just prepare this "Bagel" for them,for their consumption at some degree?

I'm agreeing in fact of having to see this operation for perfect judgement call,but in the "laymen's terms"....It does fit..

[ May 28, 2005, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]
 
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?

I think the code should be reworked to include "a room dedicated to preparing food" and the "perminent" phase needs to be changed to any appliances that are "stationary for 80% of the time" or something along this guidelines.
 
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?

Originally posted by aelectricalman:
I think the code should be reworked to include "a room dedicated to preparing food"
Wouldn't this elliminate McDonalds, I mean do they really prepare and serve "Food" or is it a "Plastic Food-Like Substance"? :D :D :D

Roger
 
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?

I don't know if it's plastic, man. Me and my buddies got all fruit-buzzed last night, man. I think they spiked the walnuts. :D
 
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?

Originally posted by georgestolz:
Originally posted by jwelectric:
I am a member of a hunting club and our cabin will sleep twenty people. We have a wood cook stove and carry water in for doing the dishes.
Weird to have electric in a cabin and still haul water in.
JW never said they had electricity. ;)
 
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?

Don
"If all of the equipment used to prepare the food or drink is cord and plug connected, then in my opinion, it is not a kitchen. Cord and plug connected equipment is not a "permanent" provision for food preparation.
Don"

I do not entirely agree with that statement, as a UL listed range with a cord connection for dwellings will be considered a permanent cooking facility- as I believe the supply to the receptacle is permanent.


Back to the original question, using the '05 NEC, I do not believe this could be considered a kitchen. Countertop cord and plug connected microwaves are not permanent means of cooking.
Is it a food preperation area, absolutely. But I can prepare the same food for a party with a temporary setup in on my backyard porch, and it would not become a kitchen.

It is UL listed. I would bet that the listing for this may be as for the different components, but not for an "assembly" of the components - just a guess.

I forgot to add: would I require GFCI protection, no. Would I add GFCI protection, as an electrician, with all of the liability, it would not hurt or cost much to add GFCI protection, so yes :) .

[ May 29, 2005, 07:59 AM: Message edited by: pierre ]
 
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?

Dwelling ranges are required by the manufacturer to have an "anti-tipping" device, which basically bolts the unit to the floor. In my opinion, that tells me that it is permanant.

Microwaves might be a different issue...I don't think a counter top microwave is permanant, but I think if you bolt the microwave above the range it is permanant.
 
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?

I have to agree with Don, no appliance is "permanent".

Fastened in place or sitting on a counter.
 
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?

I see Don's point, however I don't agree with it 100%.

Its funny, we talk about the legal ramifications of the roles we all play. Representing McDonald's, I can see how none of them are permanant. Representing an electrician in a law suit where someone died in a kitchen, I think it would be hard to convince 12 angry men that a deep fat fryer is only temporary, not permanant.
 
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?

Its funny, we talk about the legal ramifications of the roles we all play. Representing McDonald's, I can see how none of them are permanant. Representing an electrician in a law suit where someone died in a kitchen, I think it would be hard to convince 12 angry men that a deep fat fryer is only temporary, not permanant.
This statement makes me wonder, if these devices, permanent or not, are so inherently dangerous, than why would we allow them in any circumstance, without GFCI protection at all?
 
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?

All I am saying Ryan is I think Don is correct that the word 'permanent' was a poor choice for this section.
 
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?

Originally posted by ryan_618:
Dwelling ranges are required by the manufacturer to have an "anti-tipping" device, which basically bolts the unit to the floor.
Do what? I've never heard of this.
 
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?

Range manufacturers adhere to the stability requirements found in both the Underwriters Laboratories (UL) 858 Household Electric Range Safety Standard (Section 33) and the ANSI Z21.1 Household Gas Range Safety Standard (Section 1.6). These standards require that ranges manufactured after 1991 not tip with 250 pounds or less on the door or drawer for five minutes. To meet this standard, manufacturers provide brackets with each range that must be used for securing the range to a wall, floor or cabinet structure.
 
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?

Chris
That would be the package with the metal 90 degree angle piece that is suppose to bolt into the floor/wall and screw onto the back of the range.
When the range door is open, it may become front heavy, and some have tipped in the past, creating the need for securing the range.

It comes in the package that the homeowner or the builder throws away.
 
Re: Coffee Bar a Kitchen?

Originally posted by pierre:
It comes in the package that the homeowner or the builder throws away.
Come to think of it, I do believe I've seen that bracket used. Since I never actually install the range (we just sometimes hook up the tail), it's easy to overlook. I have seen it in those unhappy cases where the range outlet ends up in a position where the range won't slide back to the wall, forcing us to come back and move it. :D
 
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