Colour Code

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Re: Colour Code

Originally posted by jwelectric:

What will I do with 110.15? Hey I got it I will mark it Orange and forget all this other stuff.
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Now you bring up an interesting point!
Art 409.102(B) States "The B phase Shall be that phase voltage having the higher voltage to ground on 3-phase, four wire, delta-connected system" and Art 110.15 requires identification of the phase with the higher voltage to ground with orange or other effective means. Ok
On a four wire Delta secondary where the mid point of the B phase is grounded for 120/240v
Why would we identify the B phase orange when the A phase has the higher voltage to ground with respect to the mid point of the B Phase?

[ April 09, 2005, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: sparks1 ]
 
Re: Colour Code

Originally posted by 69boss302:
I have seen where some one actually did change markings on a wire at the controller after he reversed two phases in the controller. OK now the two wires he changed the markings in the controller don't match the same wire they come from in the distribution panel at the breaker. Now you can't tell which wire is which so when you need to do any troubleshooting you get all messed up when your trying to trace wires. And this is very simplified, I have seen it much worse.
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I agree; this scenario is inevitable. Coloring in a non-spliced box can reveal it's voltages at a glance though, but any one in the box would be qualified electrician anyway; right?

My experience is the same as yours in fact I would never count on circuit numbers for the same reasons.
 
Re: Colour Code

Sparks,
On a four wire Delta secondary where the mid point of the B phase is grounded for 120/240v
Why would we identify the B phase orange when the A phase has the higher voltage to ground with respect to the mid point of the B Phase?
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The identification rules requiring the phase with the higher voltage to ground be identified orange do not specify that the B phase shall be the one so identified. They only require that the conductor with the higher voltage to ground be identified. However there are sections such as 408.3(E) and 430.97(B) that require the B phase to have the higher voltage to ground.
Don
 
Re: Colour Code

Originally posted by don_resqcapt19:
Sparks,
However there are sections such as 408.3(E) and 430.97(B) that require the B phase to have the higher voltage to ground.
Don
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If the B Phase is brought out with the higher voltage to ground as required in 430.97(B),the mid point of the A Phase would have it's winding grounded so the B phase would have the higher voltage to ground ?
 
Re: Colour Code

sparks1,
the mid point of the A Phase would have it's winding grounded so the B phase would have the higher voltage to ground ?
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Actually, the midpoint of the coil connected to A and C phases is the one that that is grounded. This is the common installation, even though the code does not require it in all cases. This results in the B phase conductor having a voltage of 208 to ground.
Don
 
Re: Colour Code

Originally posted by don_resqcapt19:
sparks1,
This results in the B phase conductor having a voltage of 208 to ground.
Don
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Thank you Don!

Most of us would tape this 120/240 v Delta system blk,red,blu,wht. Should we add orange tape next to the red tape to identify the B leg with the higher voltage to ground?

How is this normally done?
 
Re: Colour Code

Originally posted by iwire:


" 2)2005 MEC amendments removed the MEC 200.6(D) requirement to use white under 150 to ground and gray above 150 to ground for the grounded conductor."


NEC 200.7(C)(2)refers to single pole,3way & four way switch loops and how the return conductor with white or natural grey is used and identified. The revision in the 2005 MA Amendment revises the last sentence in the 2005 NEC 200.7(C)(2)deleting the return conductor reidentification requirement.

I think this is a reasonable statment :D

Sparks

[ April 11, 2005, 07:18 AM: Message edited by: sparks1 ]
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Re: Colour Code

Originally posted by iwire:

"FORGET THE COLORS, they mean NOTHING get out a meter or trace the circuit!"


NEC 110.15 is a requirement to use orange.

[ April 10, 2005, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: sparks1 ]
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Re: Colour Code

Originally posted by iwire:
FORGET THE COLORS, they mean NOTHING get out a meter or trace the circuit!

In my opinion relying on the color of a conductor to determine it's voltage system can only lead to mistakes.
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I think this is a very reasonable statement, myself.
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[ April 10, 2005, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
 
I know it's an old thread but...

I know it's an old thread but...

As per the NYC Electrical Code and Bureau of Electrical Control....

All 120/240V as well as all 277/480V systems shall be labeled according to Con Edison's supply method.

ie:

Blue, Red, Black

Brown, Orange, Yellow

I guess when it comes down to it...it depends on the municipality who's jurisdiction you're under.

Steve from NY
 
icefalkon said:
Blue, Red, Black

Brown, Orange, Yellow
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Steve, you may have let the Genie out of the bottle again. Let me get my 2? in before the Spam hits the fan. :D

We install per those same colors on all new installation, for our convenience if for nothing else.

However, I was in a FPE panel in a old church last week that used Red & Green for ungrounded (hot) and Black for grounded (neutral).

Never trust the color of a conductor!
 
Hiya Mike,

WOW...that's crazy! But I understand what you mean. Always test first, then if necessary relabel.

Steve from NY
 
NEC Index: Color code
Branch circuits, 210.5
Conductors, 310.12, 504.80(C),
647.4(C)
Grounded conductor, 200.6,
200.7, 400.22
Grounding conductor,
250.119, 310.12(B),
400.23
Heating cables, 424.35
Higher voltage to ground
Panelboards, 408.3(E)
Sensitive electronic equipment,
647.4(C)
Service-entrance conductors,
230.56

PS: MA DOE, is that the Department of Education or Department of Energy
 
icefalkon said:
Hiya Mike,

WOW...that's crazy! But I understand what you mean. Always test first, then if necessary relabel.

Steve from NY
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In my opinion no, test than ignore the colors.

Do no relabel unless you going to change every label in the building. Relabeling at just one or two points just adds confusion.
 
Yup, it isn't practical to redo the color coding of an entire building. Luckily most of the instances I've come across here in NYC have been color coded correctly over the years. It's a set standard and law to maintain the colors throughout.

To clarify what I meant by "relabel" Iwire...I meant relabel the enclosure to say "277V" with an orange sticker on the outside of the box, not relabel every wire IN the box.

Steve from NY
 
Color coding

Color coding

At the industrial plant where I worked for a few years, in the old section built in the 1950's Green was used as an ungrounded conductor on a grounded corner delta system. I'm glad to have the progress we've made as a trade to codify color standards for grounding and grounded conductors.

3 phase motors are most all wired uniformly to where phases 1, 2, & 3, hook up to the corresponding lines, which is also good. Our practice was to always hook up the motors this way in the motor j box to avoid confusion when changing out motors. All reversing of leads for rotational purposes was done in the MCC bucket. Part of the plant was class1 div.1, so this was a safety consideration as well.

I am all for consistancy within a facility, but would hate to see too much mandating on issues of this nature.

___________________
Wes Gerrans
Instructor
Northwest Kansas technical College
Goodland, KS
 
We Haven't Done It, So let's Not Start Now

We Haven't Done It, So let's Not Start Now

charlie b said:
Thank goodness for that! I would not like to see an inspection fail for no better reason than the wrong colors were used. More importantly, from a safety perspective, I would not want a person to say, "I turned off the 480 circuit, and that wire is the color of a 480 circuit, so I can safely disconnect that wire."

There is far too much stuff out there that was installed without the application of a standard, required color code. To create a color code would not now enhance safety. To rely upon the previous installer's use of the same color code you use would be a step in an unsafe direction.
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I can list several dozen current standards that didn't exist 35 years ago. Seat belts, air bags, CAD/CAM. Just because it hasn't been done is no excuse for not adopting a better way today.
My background is a little different. Avionics. God forbid you start installing unmarked wiring in an aircraft. You wouldn't HAVE a license.
Even there safety 1st is paramount. Meter, check, and then proceed. If the suggestion is that electricians aren't smart enough to do this, I disagree.
If NEC laid down a wire color code and it was followed, eventually all construction would be in compliance.
My 1st car had no seat belts, no air bags, no computer; my present car has all of these items and some are, by law, mandatory.
I've read many excuses here but no reasons for not adopting a standard.
Not having the right tools ( correct colored tape ) is no more a valid excuse than not having your 'Kleins' with you.
 
stagert said:
God forbid you start installing unmarked wiring in an aircraft. You wouldn't HAVE a license.
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We are not wiring Airplanes. ;)

If NEC laid down a wire color code and it was followed, eventually all construction would be in compliance.
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I really doubt that, most of us in the field have seen white, green or bare used incorrectly and the uses of those colors has long been a code matter.

Also the NEC is not a design manual, a set color code would be just another step in a direction it should not be going.

If as you say testing is paramount what is the added safety benefit by a mandated color code?
 
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