Commercial Dishwasher

[jim dungar]

3 ph 4W. “No high leg”

Color coding of conductors is not a proper way of identifying voltages.
There are many areas that still have Red as the identifying color for a high leg.

I still want to see the breaker connector fingers, behind the dead front, or some other confirmation of either post #11 or #29.

 

[ramsy]

How would that explain the change in L-L voltages between posts #11 and #29?

If post 11 gives supply specs to the building, and post 29 gives measurements at end-use equipment, or sub-panel, then another xfmr may be involved.

 

[jim dungar]

If post 11 gives supply specs to the building, and post 29 gives measurements at end-use equipment, or sub-panel, then another xfmr may be involved.

Never.

Confusion is often caused by contractors using regional slang voltages when asking for troubleshooting help from people in other parts of the country or world.

If the OP intended to tell us their voltages were on two different transformer secondaries they did a very poor job at explaining their installation.

The NESC, and thus POCOs, use ANSI standards for voltages. The NEC uses the same ANSI tables when it specifies the nominal voltages to be used for service and other calculations. Any service voltages other than these would require special equipment from the POCO, including metering, which is not likely to occur unless the customer purchases power at MV and then buys their own custom wound transformers. Equipment nameplate values, especially listed stuff, are the utilization voltages at the equipment terminals.

 

[ramsy]

Confusion is often caused by contractors using regional slang voltages when asking for troubleshooting help from people in other parts of the country or world.

Would have never imagined 245v as slang for 208v

If the OP intended to tell us their voltages were on two different transformer secondaries they did a very poor job at explaining their installation.

My money stands on OPerator error, rather than slang, but paying that bet wont embarrass me if I'm wrong

The NESC, and thus POCOs, use ANSI standards for voltages.

My State General Orders replace the NESC, while ANSI remains an adopted standard for both

The NEC uses the same ANSI tables when it specifies the nominal voltages to be used for service and other calculations. Any service voltages other than these would require special equipment from the POCO, including metering, which is not likely to occur unless the customer purchases power at MV and then buys their own custom wound transformers. Equipment nameplate values, especially listed stuff, are the utilization voltages at the equipment terminals.

Useful lessons in standard nomenclature, and eliminating improbable practice, wont exclude all cause of deviation:

* Different services in the same building may happen in my area

* Standard practice wont regulate the printing of equipment labels from adjusted tap voltages

* Knuckleheads like me can be thankful for good lessons, but not without smart anus remark(s)

 

[kwired]

Would have never imagined 245v as slang for 208v

My money stands on OPerator error, rather than slang, but paying that bet wont embarrass me if I'm wrong

My State General Orders replace the NESC, while ANSI remains an adopted standard for both

Useful lessons in standard nomenclature, and eliminating improbable practice, wont exclude all cause of deviation:

* Different services in the same building may happen in my area

* Standard practice wont regulate the printing of equipment labels from adjusted tap voltages

* Knuckleheads like me can be thankful for good lessons, but not without smart anus remark(s)

we were given two different voltages at different points in the thread. The original question mostly was whether GFCI protection was needed on a circuit for a dishwasher. Maybe there is two systems present maybe there isn't. Bottom line is if three pole circuit for said dishwasher is to be supplied by a 208/120 system then GFCI is required, if it is supplied by three pole breaker from a delta system(with more than 150 volts to ground on any conductor) GFCI is not required - at this time probably mostly because there isn't really any GFCI breakers made that are listed for use on those systems. I give them another code cycle or two and they will end up requiring a GFCI that is listed for this or at least a SPGFCI to be used whether there is any statistical data showing there has been shock/electrocution issues related to this or not. NEC has been expanding GFCI requirements for several years now on "because we can" and/or limited incidents that likely had other issues contributing to an injury or death being involved as well.

 

[jim dungar]

* Different services in the same building may happen in my area

They happen all across the country. But, the POCO providing them still is subject to the nominal values inthe standards.
Systems derived from customer owned equipment are not services and should still be subject to the NEC nominal voltages.

* Standard practice wont regulate the printing of equipment labels from adjusted tap voltages

Which makes sense, just like labeling after a buck-boost. But if you are changing the nominal system voltages, the NEC requires you to also change your wire color codes.

Electricians should follow updated codes and standards, like the NEC, rather than always doing things how they were taught decades ago. I am sure most of them have adjusted to present highway speeds versus those from when they got their licenses.

 

[ramsy]

(No) GFCI breakers made that are listed for use on those systems

208v breaker is available in Post 12.

Does Schneider Electric/Square D offer QO/QOB 3 pole breakers with GFI protection?
Product Line:
Circuit Breakers

Environment:
Applies to QO-GFI
..
NOTE that this breaker does NOT have provision for a load neutral conductor and is for use on 208Y/120 VAC systems.

Bottom line.. GFCI is not required - at this time

There is one exception in Post 34

 

[kwired]

208v breaker is available in Post 12.


There is one exception in Post 34

You did not post all of what was in post 12.>>

Does Schneider Electric/Square D offer QO/QOB 3 pole breakers with GFI protection?
Product Line:
Circuit Breakers

Environment:
Applies to QO-GFI

Resolution:
Yes, we offer QO/QOB- GFI 3 pole breakers in amperages of 15, 20, 30, 40, and 50.
NOTE that this breaker does NOT have provision for a load neutral conductor and is for use on 208Y/120 VAC systems.
For 240VAC use EPD/EPE breakers. (30ma ground fault protection)

That information is correct from what I see in current online catalog. They don't have a 60 amp 3 pole GFCI. and the ones they have are only for use on 208/120 systems. The main issue is they likely are not straight 240 rated but rather 120/240 rated, plus whichever pole the electronics would be powered from likely can't be the high leg nor would they be suitable if it were corner ground delta either as there would be no 120 grounded conductor for the electronics to connect to.

They also don't have a 60 amp 3 pole EPD/EPE. Those won't comply with 210.8 anyway as they are not class A GFCI units. If OP does need 60 amp three pole GFCI it will have to be something other than a QO series at this point and in his situation likely would need to use standard 60 amp three pole and maybe a stand alone GFCI of some sort in some other enclosure - possibly at a disconnecting means within sight of the appliance?