common neutral branch circuits

[iwire]

Re: common neutral branch circuits

Originally posted by bennie:
A conductor that starts out as a neutral conductor should retain the same identity from start to finish, even on a 2 wire circuit.

Now who is redefining neutral?

Websters

Main Entry: 2 neutral
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle French, from (assumed) Medieval Latin neutralis, from Latin, of neuter gender, from neutr-, neuter
Date: 1549
1 : not engaged on either side; specifically : not aligned with a political or ideological grouping <a neutral nation>
2 : of or relating to a neutral state or power <neutral territory>
3 a : not decided or pronounced as to characteristics : INDIFFERENT b (1) : ACHROMATIC (2) : nearly achromatic c (1) : NEUTER 3 (2) : lacking stamens or pistils d : neither acid nor basic e : not electrically charged
4 : produced with the tongue in the position it has when at rest <the neutral vowels of \&-'b&v\ above>
- neu?tral?ly /-tr&-lE/ adverb
- neu?tral?ness noun

I take Neutral to mean in between, as between gears, between sides of a debate, or in our case between two or more electrical conductors.

In the case of a two wire circuit the grounded conductor is not in between anything.

If we continue to call the grounded conductor neutral just because it goes back to the neutral bar will we also call it the GEC, MBJ, EGC, etc.

It's use changes once it leaves the panel without more than one ungrounded conductor.

The document in question is dated June 25 1999, does anyone know if this definition was adopted or is it proposed?

JMO, Bob

 

[iwire]

Re: common neutral branch circuits

It seems Neutral can be a Noun also.

Websters

Main Entry: 1neu?tral
Pronunciation: 'n?-tr&l, 'ny?-
Function: noun
Date: 15th century
1 : one that is neutral
2 : a neutral color
3 : a position of disengagement (as of gears)

Bob

 

[bennie]

Re: common neutral branch circuits

I agree that the word neutral can be a noun in the examples described.
The word neutral also means "half and half". When a neutral only serves one active conductor it is a half neutral

 

[Guest]

Re: common neutral branch circuits

OK, I have been out of the trenches long enough to ask the most important question about this five page thread:

IN THE 21st CENTURY, WHY DO WE STILL ALLOW
UNBALANCED
LOADS?

Why don't we phase in to a BALANCED power system? It's much safer. Safety is what it's all about.

I'll take my answer on the air.

 

[Ed MacLaren]

Re: common neutral branch circuits

WHY DO WE STILL ALLOW UNBALANCED LOADS?

?????? Perhaps you meant "multiwire circuits"?

Why don't we phase in to a BALANCED power system? It's much safer.

And maybe you could elaborate on the "balanced power system"?

Ed

 

[pierre]

Re: common neutral branch circuits

Wow!!! how does one follow this thread? I am interested to see where this heads.
I happen to agree with Bennie that a neutral in this case cannot be used as a noun, it has to be used as an adjective in conjunction with conductor.

What is a neutral? as opposed to what is a neutral conductor?


Pierre

 

[Guest]

Re: common neutral branch circuits

Originally posted by Ed MacLaren:

WHY DO WE STILL ALLOW UNBALANCED LOADS?

?????? Perhaps you meant "multiwire circuits"?

Why don't we phase in to a BALANCED power system? It's much safer.

And maybe you could elaborate on the "balanced power system"?

Ed

Yes, a multi-wire system where each phase carries a balanced load. Your nomenclature may vary.

../Wayne

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: common neutral branch circuits

Wayne,

Yes, a multi-wire system where each phase carries a balanced load.

And just exactly how could this be accomplished in the real world?
Don

 

[hurk27]

Re: common neutral branch circuits

Pierre

What is a neutral? as opposed to what is a neutral conductor?

This sound's like we are on Jeopardy the game show.
As for a balanced system there was a thread in the old forum on this but it would of been to costly for the power company's and it would of required two wires for 120 volts and two wires for 240 volts at each house.

 

[karl riley]

Re: common neutral branch circuits

Wayne, you are coming to a point where you need to state what you are saying more clearly, since it is becoming difficult to tell what is in your mind.

Can you tell us what you do for a profession? That might clarify your posts.

Karl

 

[david]

Re: common neutral branch circuits

posted August 26, 2003 06:15 PM ron,The type of circuit that we are talking about is 2 #12 ungrounded conductors, both connected to the 20 amp breakers on the same phase and a #8 grounded conductor that is common to both ungrounded conductors. Why anyone would want to intall this type of circuit, I don't know, but my point is that the code does not speciffically prohibit that circuit.Don

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why anyone would want to intall this type of circuit, I don't know, but my point is that the code does not speciffically prohibit that circuit
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Wayne
I think every one here would agree that if you need two circuits it is much better to share the neutral with two ungrounded circuits of different phases. In the eleven years that I have been an inspector, actually in the twenty years I have been wiring, I have not seen any one use a common neutral circuit. So I would say that the majority of the Industry agrees that multi-wire circuits are the way to go.

 

[hurk27]

Re: common neutral branch circuits

Not to take this side ways anymore than it already has but here is one useful install that would or could be of use since the NEC don't specifically prohibit the circuit with an over sized neutral.

Let's say we are relocating a service and upgrading the house but don't want to rerun all the branch circuits.
we then want to use the old panel as a JB box for the most part and to cut down on the amount of wires we have to run back to the new panel we keep the old neutral bar and connections and install a grounding bar to separate the grounds from the neutrals. now we run a #3 neutral and a #6 green grounding conductor through the conduit with just the branch circuit hot conductors in a conduit to the new panel.
This would be a good example on this discussion

 

[jimb]

Re: common neutral branch circuits

This is like deja vu all over again

We beat this up a little bit a couple of months ago at http://www.mikeholt.com/cgi-bin/codeforum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=001046#000002

Most of you guys here are more learned than I, but in my humble opinion, the NEC doesn't specifically prohibit this therefore it must be permissable if done "correctly". My problem lies in the fact that there is no standard "correct" way of doing it. I agree that there are some valid uses for this type of installation and that it is not necessarily practical for most branch circuit wiring but I can't find anything that would prohibit someone from supplying a "split-wired" 20A receptacle fed from a 20A piggyback breaker as long as the grounded conductor is sized to carry 40A and is connected in such a way to limit the load on each half of the duplex to 20A. Electrically, that may be no big deal, but because this arrangement would not meet the definition of a "multi-wire circuit" as stated in the NEC, the provisions of 210.4(B) could not be applied.

I suppose that for this reason and undoubtedly others, I think this should either be prohibited by the NEC or better yet, addressed so that there will be standards regarding the way these circuits are used.

Jim

 

[pierre]

Re: common neutral branch circuits

Wayne

Exactly my point. When someone asks me, what is a neutral, I say a neutral what?
When they ask me what is a neutral conductor, now I know what they are asking.

Define neutral

Define neutral conductor

Pierre

 

[iceman2610]

Re: common neutral branch circuits

WOW
Where have I been. I have been busy for the last week and started trying to catch up. When I came across this thread, I got really lost!