Common trip required for d/w & disposal?

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dana1028

Senior Member
Location
San Francisco Bay area
Re: Common trip required for d/w & disposal?

Originally posted by jwelectric:
210.4 Multiwire Branch Circuits.
(B) Devices or Equipment. Where a multiwire branch circuit supplies more than one device or equipment on the same yoke, a means shall be provided to disconnect simultaneously all ungrounded conductors supplying those devices or equipment at the point where the branch circuit originates.
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A handle tie mignt not fulfill this requirement.
:)
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jwel: If you take a look at the NEC Handbook, 240.20, the handbook goes into a rather thorough discussion on the difference between a 'common trip' and a 'common disconnect'. The first requires a factory assembly, the 2nd permits a field assembly (field installed handle ties).
 
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cselectric

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
Re: Common trip required for d/w & disposal?

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Before we get to deep into this let me say that I have taught the handle tie thing but a student has laid this on me and I cannot disprove her thinking so therefore I will debate it here on this forum until I get a good answer to give her.

Yes Roger I agree
:)
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The best answer for that? "I could sit and argue semantics with you for hours... but I'm not going to."

Really, her's is little more than a word game. That being said, it could be argued that the word "to" (ie: means to disconnect) is indicative of a manual action and not an automatic response, thus allowing the handle ties.

[ September 01, 2005, 09:41 PM: Message edited by: cselectric ]
 
jwelectric

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Re: Common trip required for d/w & disposal?

Originally posted by cselectric:
The best answer for that? "I could sit and argue semantics with you for hours... but I'm not going to."

Really, her's is little more than a word game. That being said, it could be argued that the word "to" (ie: means to disconnect) is indicative of a manual action and not an automatic response, thus allowing the handle ties.
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Words well spoken and I shall use them. Thank you
:)
 
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derf48

Member
Re: Common trip required for d/w & disposal?

The code section that explains the manual and automatic is 240.20. In the 2005, a change was made to clarify that handle ties do not open all ungrounded conductors automatically. Another application for handle ties would be to fulfill the requirement of 605.6 and 605.7. A multiwire branch circuit to a office partition needs a means to disconnect all conductors simultaneously, but in the case of a overcurrent condition (all three types) the need for automatic disconnection only applies to that individual circuit. Real World application - my computer does not lose power when the space heater used by the secretary causes an overload on another circuit in this partition.

Fred
 
charlie b

charlie b

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Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Common trip required for d/w & disposal?

To sparky349: You haven't said anything since the original post. Would you please clarify something for us? How are the dishwasher and the disposal wired? Are one or both hard wired? Are the both plug & cord? If they are both plug & cord, then are they on the same (split) duplex receptacle?

To the rest: Am I right in believing that if the two are not on the same (split) duplex receptacle, that is they are not "on the same yoke," then all discussion of 2-pole breakers and handle ties goes out the window, and that they could be on separate, single pole, non-adjacent breakers?
 
roger

roger

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Location
Fl
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Re: Common trip required for d/w & disposal?

Charlie,
To the rest: Am I right in believing that if the two are not on the same (split) duplex receptacle, that is they are not "on the same yoke," then all discussion of 2-pole breakers and handle ties goes out the window, and that they could be on separate, single pole, non-adjacent breakers?
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you are correct.

Roger
 
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sparky349

Member
Re: Common trip required for d/w & disposal?

Wow. That opened a big can of worms. Both the d/w & disposal were plug & cord and two separate duplex outlets were being fed. Didn't make any sense then, still doesn't why it was required.

Thank you, Ryan and Roger. I would have to agree that FL is like no other state. It's like a separate country down here.
 
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jimwalker

Senior Member
Location
TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Common trip required for d/w & disposal?

Whats so hard about just using a 2 pole breaker ? costs the same as 2 singles and you save the red tag fee.This is about time and material.I can direct wire both a lot cheaper than buying 2 cords and a duplex receptacle.Lockout for breaker are cheap and take maybe 5 seconds to install.KISS :D
 
electricmanscott

electricmanscott

Senior Member
Location
Boston, MA
Re: Common trip required for d/w & disposal?

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Whats so hard about just using a 2 pole breaker ? costs the same as 2 singles and you save the red tag fee.This is about time and material.I can direct wire both a lot cheaper than buying 2 cords and a duplex receptacle.Lockout for breaker are cheap and take maybe 5 seconds to install.KISS :D
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Why worry about a "Red Tag Fee" when there is nothing to red tag.
 
George Stolz

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Re: Common trip required for d/w & disposal?

Originally posted by jimwalker:
I can direct wire both a lot cheaper than buying 2 cords and a duplex receptacle.
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This begs a question: do I really want to know how you direct-wire a garbage disposal? :(
 
roger

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Re: Common trip required for d/w & disposal?

George, I think Jim would use the same method he uses for table lamps, TV's, computers, battery chargers, hair dryers, etc... :D

Roger
 
electricmanscott

electricmanscott

Senior Member
Location
Boston, MA
Re: Common trip required for d/w & disposal?

I do a ton of kitchen remodels. The biggest benefit to cord and plug connecting everything is that I can finish a job without having to worry about the plumber. Wires don't get buried behind the dishwasher, and no call backs for appliance hookups. Also there are more dw's and disposals that are comming with cords already installed.
 
roger

roger

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Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Re: Common trip required for d/w & disposal?

Mike, I don't know if I can handle that much pressure, I will be happy to be a behind the scene adviser though. ;)

Roger
 
iwire

iwire

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Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: Common trip required for d/w & disposal?

Originally posted by georgestolz:
This begs a question: do I really want to know how you direct-wire a garbage disposal? :(
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It's really not difficult and it is how I was trained. :p I have never used a cord and plug to wire a disposal or dishwasher. :p
 
M

macmikeman

Senior Member
Location
Planet macmikeman
Re: Common trip required for d/w & disposal?

Anybody ever seen the ancient garbage disposals that didn't wire off a switch?. They were "direct wired". The switch was inside the disposer, in the neck of the thing. Pressure from stuffing garbage into the unit automatically turned it on. Problem was the machine was too stupid to understand the difference between garbage and your hand........ or a kids foot...... Haven't seen one in a while.
 
iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: Common trip required for d/w & disposal?

Thats a "Batch Feed" garbage disposal and I believe they are still available but you have to use a particular 'cover' in the hole that fires the motor.
 
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