Company using auctioned/ damaged equipment

[Jpflex]

I can really use some advice

A mining company I work for buys auctioned electrical cabinets, panels and equipment in bulk for likely fraction of a cost. Often times the breaker panels are partly smashed and doors cannot close completely

Anyways I completely wired up a lab from a 3 phase delta - delta ungrounded 30KVA 4800/ 480 transformer.

This fed the lab to a step down transformer for 480 to usable 120/240 volts for the lab

The single phase panel fed from this transformer was another used piece of equipment of which some equipment are dated as old as 1940.

Anyway when I went to push in and pull out a 20 ampere branch circuit breaker the panel buss would loose connection to the breakers and cause dimming / flickering of power to a nearby circuit powering an expensive lab microwave

Apparently the microwave loosing power caused it to have to be reprogrammed or possible damage to what was being heated inside and therefore it seems the company assumed I shut it off and caused this

We have had issues with the companies equipment causing fires and disconnects not being able to be locked out due to misaligned covers etc but owners put the blame on a former electrician

What advice do you all have?

 

[ramsy]

owners put the blame on a former electrician

Your next!!

 

[Jpflex]

Your next!!

That’s not what I wanted to hear lol come on man

 

[petersonra]

There is no reason you cannot buy and use used equipment. After all, every piece of equipment in your mine is used

 

[jaggedben]

@Jpflex You are an employee of this company (not a contractor) right? I sure hope so.

While there may be no general prohibition on used equipment, what they are doing sounds pretty stupid to me.

 

[ptonsparky]

Nothing wrong with spare parts. Sort the equipment that is usable and discard the rest. Making sure there is no mistake on usability. Hint: BFH
Installing a breaker in an energized panel created a lot paperwork. Right?

 

[nizak]

You sound intelligent enough to already know the answer.

Is it your liability as a paid EC or are you employed and taking direction from management?

 

[Jpflex]

There is no reason you cannot buy and use used equipment. After all, every piece of equipment in your mine is used

I did not say one cannot buy used equipment. What I’m saying is that electricians should not be held responsible for when non electrician owners or bosses buy used equipment that fails and causes hazards

 

[Jpflex]

You sound intelligent enough to already know the answer.

Is it your liability as a paid EC or are you employed and taking direction from management?

Not so. Do you think the labor board will help me get a job or back or reinstate my job if I loose it for not following management / owners orders?

You can loose your job for not following orders. It’s not that easy to just get another job and there are bills to pay.

I hate how people put all blame and responsibility on technicians who seem to have to compromise between owner jurisdiction and state, law etc

 

[Jpflex]

Nothing wrong with spare parts. Sort the equipment that is usable and discard the rest. Making sure there is no mistake on usability. Hint: BFH
Installing a breaker in an energized panel created a lot paperwork. Right?

It’s just that these equipment were piled in junk heaps with dirt, rain and rust for decades. I follow orders to use what they are supplying with but my point is the irritation of shift of responsibility of equipment failure as a result.

 

[Jpflex]

@Jpflex You are an employee of this company (not a contractor) right? I sure hope so.

While there may be no general prohibition on used equipment, what they are doing sounds pretty stupid to me.

I’m not a contractor but an hourly employee.

 

[augie47]

From all indications it was that way before you came and it will likely be that way after you leave unless Karma via OSHA or MSHA plays a hand.
As an employee you pretty much have to play the game by their rules. When you find it unbearable, let your feet do the talking.

 

[garbo]

On moonlighting jobs I have only purchased used 480 to 120/208 transformers, phase changers and motors. Never liked the condition of used panels & starters. The large hospital that I retired from always had some transformers & 200 to 800 amp ATS switches in storage from upgrades. They would hire a testing company to go over the transformers and ASCO tech to go over the ATS'S before applying power. The used ATS switches were only used in remote small medical centers for emergency replacement.

 

[nizak]

Not so. Do you think the labor board will help me get a job or back or reinstate my job if I loose it for not following management / owners orders?

You can loose your job for not following orders. It’s not that easy to just get another job and there are bills to pay.

I hate how people put all blame and responsibility on technicians who seem to have to compromise between owner jurisdiction and state, law etc

I’m not putting blame on you. I’m simply stating if you are an EC you’d know it’s wrong and unsafe to use equipment that appears or is sub standard.

As an employee you do what you’re asked to do.

First and foremost make sure YOU are safe and let the Co. be responsible for injuring others.

 

[ptonsparky]

It’s just that these equipment were piled in junk heaps with dirt, rain and rust for decades. I follow orders to use what they are supplying with but my point is the irritation of shift of responsibility of equipment failure as a result.

We understand. You are venting your frustrations.
You can say, No. If an item is not suitable for use, BFH the hell out it but make sure you can say why.

 

[Buck Parrish]

A door not closing right can be rectified to make it functional. An old 1940s buss wore out buss bar can not. Just tell them that one is a safety issue. Help repair the doors, etc maybe you have to make a lock. Throw out the non usable or loose buss bars, that just makes common sense.

I went to a Simens manufacturer that was farely new like 20 years. They were moving and leaving all the switch gears panels etc... A recycle company, Synergy, hired us to de-energize every thing and pull out all the copperwires, the big ones. The 20 year old panels and switch gears looked new. They probably can and do get damaged in shipping or disassembling.

 

[SparkyBirdman]

I do agree with augie47 and jaggedben-your companies management is doing whats best for them and their board/possibly shareholders. No one in management will say it openly, but there is a cost analysis done on how much money is saved going cheap, cutting corners, not building to code, etc-versus the possibility of wrongful death or serious injury to an employee (the car industry has been doing this for years with recalls!).

While you have an argument with ‘management told me to do it this way’, think of how things are in the military: while the same argument could be used, ‘I was under orders’, you can still be court marshaled for not standing up to a higher order. The same can be used on an electrical journeyman-you having that card says you are trained and qualified to work on that equipment. If you make a mistake, its on you. If you aren’t trained and qualified on that equipment, then you shouldn’t work on it.

YOU as the employee have power as well. The days of not having adequate safety gear and training are gone. Companies all over the planet are being forced to a higher and better standard because of this. You have the right-and per Code-are the authority to say when equipment or a process is unsafe and poses an issue. Certainly, things we can’t see or hidden issues that we couldn’t have planned for do happen-despite what some say, accidents do happen. However, we have lots of resources to reduce and/or possibly eliminate accidents.

And if the company doesn’t want to do this and puts profits above your health and safety, then I recommend you start circulating that resume now because it will be your livelihood either way. In the meantime, I think you have plenty of ammo to throw back at them to reduce their claims that you are at fault: who inspected and validated the equipment they bought? Did you have the proper training on that equipment? Were you given the proper ppe and training to work on it live? I would certainly throw back at them that doing hot-work poses many dangers and damaged equipment is one of them. Was that microwave installed per the mfrs direction? Was it effectively protected from surges? Remind THEM that management has accepted responsibility for using old/used, improperly maintained equipment and doing-hot work and that these are the results sometimes.

Every single company that has tried to cut corners and defer maintenance has ALWAYS paid more in the long run. There are so many studies done on the INVESTMENT of training and following best practices, that hiding behind saying you save far more money by not implementing them is no longer a valid argument.

 

[jaggedben]

I do agree with augie47 and jaggedben-your companies management is doing whats best for them and their board/possibly shareholders. No one in management will say it openly, but there is a cost analysis done on how much money is saved going cheap, cutting corners, not building to code, etc-versus the possibility of wrongful death or serious injury to an employee (the car industry has been doing this for years with recalls!).
...

Every company I've worked for (all small to medium size) seemed to have some vague notions about this sort of thing based on anecdotes or personal experience. Can't say any of them had actually done any analysis.

 

[SparkyBirdman]

Every company I've worked for (all small to medium size) seemed to have some vague notions about this sort of thing based on anecdotes or personal experience. Can't say any of them had actually done any analysis.

I worked at a municipal POCO for 5 years before going on my own to be a contractor (debatable on if that was wise or not!) and I was under the impression that since they weren’t for profit, maintenance and employee safety would be better than the other guys right?? Turns out, the same mentality was held.

One super was caught fudging numbers on the recert dates for safety harnesses to prevent having to buy them as often (was reported to OSHA, she got demoted and sent to another dept); someone thought they could get away from buying FR/AR rated rain gear to save $300k (got caught, had to buy it anyway so the company ended up buying it twice cuz the others were not returnable), they would buy chinese transformers to save a few million, but then were shocked when they’d blow up after 5-10 years instead of lasting 30-40+ like the top brands; I was in charge of the hivolt test lab and was constantly fighting with management for 2 years on buying proper rubber gloves/blankets and maintaining hot sticks.

Like I said, no one at the top is going to admit or have a hard copy of a report that says they’d rather cut corners than worry about protecting their people, but theres plenty of bean counters and CFOs that just look at dollars, budgets and bonuses and they take the gamble.

 

[ramsy]

That’s not what I wanted to hear lol come on man

Grasshopper must learn the military acronym for surviving while expendable.

Cover Your Anus (CYA)
In your case, photo damage (equipment listing violations), report unsuitability (document), and record contrary orders.

Forget this at your own peril. Especially with military or self-regulated industry, where sacrifice is just a cost of doing business. Self-regulated solders are either sacrificial lambs, or whistle blowers, who face hazards or termination.

The last electrician failed to document, and became an easily patsy, scapegoat, fired, fool, without a good reference for future employment. Expendable employees who escape with their life learn to carry on.