conductor color of same circuit

[mwm1752]

...look up the art 100 definition of 'branch circuit' and 'outlet', than apply 210.5 to your 3 way switches

so he could use Pk & Pu then use tape to identify the phase used.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

So could any install yeah? Its a "given" that the colors for 480 are Brown Orange Yellow. 240/208 Black Red Blue. But where does it say this in the code book? I am not very good at interpreting the code but do they mean that we must post Black Red Blue as hots for all 120/240 distribution centers? OR Purple Yellow Pink as hots if someone got a great deal from a parts house? I haven't seen anything stating a color other than on neutrals, grounds, and high legs. Just how I read it though and think that the "trade standard" of coloring is considered readily available IMO.

Taking the conductor color, even the colors green or white as a given for for the identification of the function of a conductor is a good what you to get into trouble.

The rule in 210.5 does not require you that you use colors to ID the conductors by phase and voltage. That is the easiest method and the method most often used. No matter what method you use, the method of identification must be posted at each panel.

 

[GoldDigger]

Actually the code language says it must be posted at the facility, not at every panel.

 

[mwm1752]

The rule in 210.5 does not require you that you use colors to ID the conductors by phase and voltage. .[/QUOTE]

By phase but not by voltage
(1) Branch Circuits Supplied from Mor e Than One Nominal Voltage System. Where the premises wiring system has branch circuits supplied from more than one nominal voltage system, each ungrounded conductor of a branch circuit shall be identified by phase or line and system at all termination, connection, and splice points in compliance with 210.5(C)(1) (a) and (b).

code gets more restrictive every time we discuss this --

 

[ActionDave]

You could be cited for a 210.5 violation.

You have a point. Have to admit I was not really thinking about three-waying 277V lights.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

The rule in 210.5 does not require you that you use colors to ID the conductors by phase and voltage. .

By phase but not by voltage
(1) Branch Circuits Supplied from Mor e Than One Nominal Voltage System. Where the premises wiring system has branch circuits supplied from more than one nominal voltage system, each ungrounded conductor of a branch circuit shall be identified by phase or line and system at all termination, connection, and splice points in compliance with 210.5(C)(1) (a) and (b).

code gets more restrictive every time we discuss this --[/QUOTE]
But that section does not require the use of insulation colors...you can use any method that you want to as long as you post the method at the panels. Of course the use of insulation color is the easiest method.

110.5(C)(1)(a) Means of Identification. The means of identification shall be permitted to be by separate color coding, marking tape,
tagging, or other approved means.

 

[mwm1752]

to be clear Don, I did not originally post your comments -- "The rule in 210.5 does not require you that you use colors to ID the conductors by phase and voltage." whether you mark the phase with a tag, color sheath, tapr each phaes is marked properly along each respective point. Again only with more than 1 nominal voltage supplied to the structure

 

[GoldDigger]

By phase but not by voltage
...

Well, not exactly.
When you have two different voltage systems the code requires that the marking identify the color and the system.
The only practical difference I see in the two wordings is that if you happen to have both single phase and three phase service you would have different colors for 120V L-N depending on which system it was part of. Although in that case the phases would be different too. (There could be either four or five distinct phase angles.)

 

[AKElectrician]

Taking the conductor color, even the colors green or white as a given for for the identification of the function of a conductor is a good what you to get into trouble.

The rule in 210.5 does not require you that you use colors to ID the conductors by phase and voltage. That is the easiest method and the method most often used. No matter what method you use, the method of identification must be posted at each panel.

I agree with you whole heartily, it has X amount of voltage until Mr. Fluke says otherwise. Side-note Mr. Fluke has leads, he is not a death stick that I see so many people trust. Todays apprentice final understands why I refer to them as death sticks, and I'm not just kidding around. He now has a reminder because he has to by new strippers. Back to the topic I have honestly never seen "Black is A phase, Red is B phase, Blue is C phase, white is neutral. ANYWHERE EVER (this implies I haven't done it and am a bad bad boy).

 

[iwire]

Actually the code language says it must be posted at the facility, not at every panel.

For at least the last couple of code cycles we have been required to post at each panelboard.

210.5 Identification for Branch Circuits.

(C) Identification of Ungrounded Conductors. Ungrounded
conductors shall be identified in accordance with
210.5(C)(1), (2), and (3).

(3) Posting of Identification Means. The method utilized
for conductors originating within each branch-circuit panelboard
or similar branch-circuit distribution equipment
shall be documented in a manner that is readily available or
shall be permanently posted at each branch-circuit panelboard
or similar branch-circuit distribution equipment

 

[mwm1752]

408.3(F)(2) would fit he bill -- for marking voltages

 

[kwired]

Actually the code language says it must be posted at the facility, not at every panel.

I vote we post it on the back side of doors of restroom stalls - then you know it will be read.

I have to agree with Bob that it needs placed at least at every panel.

Well, not exactly.
When you have two different voltage systems the code requires that the marking identify the color and the system.
The only practical difference I see in the two wordings is that if you happen to have both single phase and three phase service you would have different colors for 120V L-N depending on which system it was part of. Although in that case the phases would be different too. (There could be either four or five distinct phase angles.)

It may be common to have a facility supplied by 480/277 Y then have multiple 208/120, 240, 120/240 separately derived systems derived from the 480 volt supply. The way I read it every one of those separate systems needs identified, even if there is more then one system of the same voltage and number of phases.

100 floor high rise with a separately derived system serving each floor? Though as far as I am concerned if they don't supply other floors one ID method for the separately derived systems is probably fine, but if you want to be strict in interpretation you need 100 different ID methods.

 

[GoldDigger]

I vote we post it on the back side of doors of restroom stalls - then you know it will be read.

I have to agree with Bob that it needs placed at least at every panel.

It may be common to have a facility supplied by 480/277 Y then have multiple 208/120, 240, 120/240 separately derived systems derived from the 480 volt supply. The way I read it every one of those separate systems needs identified, even if there is more then one system of the same voltage and number of phases.

100 floor high rise with a separately derived system serving each floor? Though as far as I am concerned if they don't supply other floors one ID method for the separately derived systems is probably fine, but if you want to be strict in interpretation you need 100 different ID methods.

1.
The code refers to each system with a different nominal voltage, not each SDS. Otherwise it would be a real mess trying to wire up an industrial building with 480 distribution and local SDS for 240 or 120.
It is still a good idea to identify the separate sources in some way especially if there are any circuits on a given floor that are NOT powered from that floor's SDS.
2. Regarding legend at each panelboard, look again at the language:

shall be documented in a manner that is readily available or
shall be permanently posted at each branch-circuit panelboard
or similar branch-circuit distribution equipment

I am not sure what would be considered readily available (sheet of paper in the sparky's pocket? Smart phone Ap?) but at each panelboard is only one alternative.

 

[kwired]

1.
The code refers to each system with a different nominal voltage, not each SDS. Otherwise it would be a real mess trying to wire up an industrial building with 480 distribution and local SDS for 240 or 120.
It is still a good idea to identify the separate sources in some way especially if there are any circuits on a given floor that are NOT powered from that floor's SDS.
2. Regarding legend at each panelboard, look again at the language:


I am not sure what would be considered readily available (sheet of paper in the sparky's pocket? Smart phone Ap?) but at each panelboard is only one alternative.

I agree there is options on where to post the "legend", readily available or at each panel.

I still think back of bathroom stall doors is readily available

Otherwise isn't each separate source a separate system? If I have 480/277 supplying facility that is one system, if I separately derive 10 208/120 sources - isn't each of those a separate system even though they are all same voltage?

(1)Branch Circuits Supplied from More Than One Nominal Voltage System.


Where the premises wiring system has branch circuits supplied from more than one nominal voltage system, each ungrounded conductor of a branch circuit shall be identified by phase or line and system at all termination, connection, and splice points in compliance with 210.5(C)(1)(a) and (b).

 

[ggunn]

So could any install yeah? Its a "given" that the colors for 480 are Brown Orange Yellow. 240/208 Black Red Blue. But where does it say this in the code book?

It doesn't but some AHJ's have their local amendments/additions to the Code which stipulate colors to indicate voltage and phase. Austin and San Antonio both do, and their rules are different.

 

[GoldDigger]

I agree there is options on where to post the "legend", readily available or at each panel.

I still think back of bathroom stall doors is readily available

Otherwise isn't each separate source a separate system? If I have 480/277 supplying facility that is one system, if I separately derive 10 208/120 sources - isn't each of those a separate system even though they are all same voltage?

Definitely subject to interpretation, but to me " from more than one nominal voltage system" has to mean something different from " from more than one system", and that means that any number of systems, all at the same nominal voltage (and in phase with each other?), would not count as more than one.

 

[iwire]

2. Regarding legend at each panelboard, look again at the language:


I am not sure what would be considered readily available (sheet of paper in the sparky's pocket? Smart phone Ap?) but at each panelboard is only one alternative.

Here it is at each panel-board. It is clearly an AHJ call.

 

[iwire]

Definitely subject to interpretation, but to me " from more than one nominal voltage system" has to mean something different from " from more than one system", and that means that any number of systems, all at the same nominal voltage (and in phase with each other?), would not count as more than one.

I believe the CMPs have made statements to that effect. :thumbsup:

 

[sparkyrick]

Not in my world. I like to use off colours like pink or purple for switch legs and travellers.

I thought I was the only one that did that!

 

[sparkyrick]

How many shops here use black/white/green MC cable for 277V lighting circuits