• We will be performing upgrades on the forums and server over the weekend. The forums may be unavailable multiple times for up to an hour each. Thank you for your patience and understanding as we work to make the forums even better.

Conductor insulation damage

Status
Not open for further replies.
roger

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Well even though it is a little bit of a stretch there is 110.3(A)(4). However, even it someone tried to use that section repairing the insulation would still be allowed IMO.
 
synchro

synchro

Senior Member
Location
Chicago, IL
Occupation
EE
I believe there's an informational note under 110.12 that accepted industry practices are described in NECA 1-2015, Standard for Good Workmanship in Electrical Construction.

In NECA 1-2015 there's this:
9. Wire and Cable
c) Wire and cable shall be installed so as not to damage the insulation or cable sheath.
 
S

SterTheDer

Member
Location
Iowa
Occupation
Consulting Engineer
Just spitballing ideas from 2023 code:
300.4 Protection Against Physical Damage. Where subject to physical damage, conductors, raceways, and cables shall be protected.
Click to expand...
300.14 Length of Free Conductors at Outlets, Junctions, and Switch Points. At least 150 mm (6 in.) of free conductor, measured from the point in the box where it emerges from its raceway or cable sheath, shall be left at each outlet, junction , and switch point for splices or the connection of luminaires or devices. The 150 mm (6 in.) free conductor shall be permitted to be spliced or un-spliced. Where the opening to an outlet, junction, or switch point is less than 200 mm (8 in.) in any dimension, each conductor shall be long enough to extend at least 75mm (3 in.) outside the opening. Exception: Conductors that are not spliced or terminated at the outlet, junction, or switch point shall not be required to comply with 300.14.
Click to expand...
Splices and junctions need to be made with products 'listed and rated for the use intended', so the repair would need to be with a product listed for insulation repair.
I agree, tape is tacky, is there a U.L listed heat shrink that would be better?
It seems that cutting that connection and using a wire-nut or lever-nut would be a 'compliant' repair, though clearly worse in nearly every way than just wrapping with tape.
Just my 2C
 
briankilea

briankilea

Member
Location
Pensacola, Florida
Occupation
Engineer, Brewer, Business Owner
Had a few minutes to stop by the house today. Noticed this posted...

Guess I'll either have to argue with my builder that I won't accept the work or I'll just have to go back myself and fix all of it. Apparently not a concern to the electrical inspectors here.

I'll continue to bug the inspections office and see if I can actually talk to one of their inspectors. I left a message yesterday in hopes I could meet with them when they went to the house but never heard back...

20230310_173633.jpg
 
LarryFine

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
SterTheDer said:
. . . tape is tacky . . .
Click to expand...
Well, it wouldn't work very well if it wasn't. :giggle:

It seems that cutting that connection and using a wire-nut or lever-nut would be a 'compliant' repair, though clearly worse in nearly every way than just wrapping with tape.
Click to expand...
Agreed; as I said earlier, why cut and splice an intact conductor?

The insulation is merely slit, not missing; just cover the slit.
 
roger

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
briankilea said:
Had a few minutes to stop by the house today. Noticed this posted...

Guess I'll either have to argue with my builder that I won't accept the work or I'll just have to go back myself and fix all of it. Apparently not a concern to the electrical inspectors here.

I'll continue to bug the inspections office and see if I can actually talk to one of their inspectors. I left a message yesterday in hopes I could meet with them when they went to the house but never heard back...

View attachment 2564380
Click to expand...
Send them the pictures you posted here and invite them to to this conversation
 
J

jmellc

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
Occupation
Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
Ringing the outer jacket can do that. Makes a tiny cut on conductor that's not seen until you bend and twist, then you have bare copper showing. Similar if going too deep. I try my best but do damage a wire occasionally. I like heat shrink tubing for these fixes.
 
J

jmellc

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
Occupation
Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
jap said:
110.7 Wiring Integrity. Completed wiring installations shall be
free from short circuits, ground faults, or any connections to
ground other than as required or permitted elsewhere in this
Code.

Problem with that is, even with the missing insulation, it is free from shorts, ground faults or any other connection to ground.

JAP>
Click to expand...
For the moment, until box gets reworked down the road. Then you may have fireworks.
 
rbalex

rbalex

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Mission Viejo, CA
Occupation
Professional Electrical Engineer
I’m surprised no one has cited Section 110.12. It may seem to be a bit ambiguous but the IN references a very specific standard.
 
T

timlahr

Member
Location
St paul, Mn, US
briankilea said:
Is this a code violation or just considered sloppy electrical work? Anything specific in the NEC or NFPA?

conductor1.jpg


conductor2.jpg
Click to expand...
In my opinion, unless you are really adept at using a razor knife to draw across the sheathing without penetrating the conductors, don't do it. Draw the tip of the utility blade down the length a ways, the bare ground wire is in the middle of the cable so keep the cut down the centerline of the cable. Of course if you "run off course" and push too hard you may cut into one of the circuit conductors, however it's usually easier to notice it because it's not inconspicuously right where the wire enters the box.
There are a lot of ways to splice a cable type installation. Whichever way you do it , you have to learn the method you prefer to the point where it delivers an adequate and SAFE result.
The person who did this job probably did not learn under a competent J-Man or Master and just keeps going along producing poor results. AfCI's ( much as I hate them) are made for these clowns.
 
LarryFine

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
The cables shown in the OP's picturess were damaged because they weren't stripped prior to inserting them into the boxes. I only do that with cables fished in during remodel work.

Back when I was a helper, I was taught to pinch the sheath in two or three places around the cable with the corner of my pliers, creating holes and cuts, then sliding it off of the wires.
 
J

jap

Senior Member
Occupation
Electrician
briankilea said:
Had a few minutes to stop by the house today. Noticed this posted...

Guess I'll either have to argue with my builder that I won't accept the work or I'll just have to go back myself and fix all of it. Apparently not a concern to the electrical inspectors here.

I'll continue to bug the inspections office and see if I can actually talk to one of their inspectors. I left a message yesterday in hopes I could meet with them when they went to the house but never heard back...

View attachment 2564380
Click to expand...

This shows to be the Plumbing Inspection, not the Electrical.

JAP>
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top