Conductor Size Larger than Breaker

[DSamson]

I had an inspection today, rough-in for a bathroom remodel. It's a long way from the panel to the bathroom (about 80 feet). One of the circuits is for a heated floor. It draws 5.4 Amps. I put it on a 15 Amp breaker, on its own circuit. Because of the distance from the panel to the bathroom, I ran 12 AWG most of the way, through the basement and crawl space in EMT, then transitioned to 12/2 NM-B to fish up through the walls to the bathroom. I hit a junction box in the bathroom for the main bank of switches, then there's a very short run of 14/2 to the box for the heated floor thermostat.

The inspector said I can't have a 12 AWG wire in the panel on a 15 Amp circuit if any part of my run is 14 AWG. He said the next guy could come in and think the whole circuit is 12 AWG and change the breaker to a 20 Amp.

In this case I increased the wire size to avoid voltage drop. In other cases I've increased wire size because of high ambient temprature of conductors run through an attic.

Is the inspector right? Must the wire guage in the panel correspond exactly the breaker size? This doesn't make any sense to me. Why can't the wire ampacity exceed the breaker size? Would appreciate your help.

Thanks,

David

 

[ptonsparky]

IMO the wire size can be larger than the CB size. It is done all the time for voltage drop and motors.

With his reasoning the wire to first jbox should be 14 then 12. When doing changouts we rarely to never check to see if someone has run a #14 switch leg on circuit that leaves the panel as a 12 so he has a point.

 

[infinity]

The inspector is incorrect. The circuit could be run with any size conductor #14 or larger. His "what if" scenario is not an enforceable part of the NEC. Larger conductors are run just as you've described for VD all of the time. Your installation is code compliant. If he insists that he's correct ask him for a code reference.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

That guy has no buisness being an inspector.Next time he wants to tag something demand a code number.Willing to bet he will be more carefull in future if he knows you fight back.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

It draws 5.4 Amps. I put it on a 15 Amp breaker, on its own circuit. Because of the distance from the panel to the bathroom, I ran 12 AWG most of the way
David

I agree with the other that the electrical inspector is incorrect, however, FYI you did not need to run #12 at all. #14 would have been sufficient. Here is a site that does VD calculations
http://www.elec-toolbox.com/calculators/voltdrop.htm

 

[lowryder88h]

Conductor

Conductor

Stay the course, when your code compliant and you can prove it w/ the proper NEC article, do not......do not let the inspector be your Delilah.

 

[Telaid]

Question about this

Question about this

Im an electrical design engineer, not a electrical contractor, so i dont usually have to deal with inspectors. What do you do when an inspector is incorrect and wont budge on his answer?

 

[dnem]

The inspector is incorrect. The circuit could be run with any size conductor #14 or larger. His "what if" scenario is not an enforceable part of the NEC. Larger conductors are run just as you've described for VD all of the time. Your installation is code compliant. If he insists that he's correct ask him for a code reference.

That?s right
?The inspector is incorrect. ?.. ask him for a code reference.?

That guy has no buisness being an inspector.Next time he wants to tag something demand a code number.Willing to bet he will be more carefull in future if he knows you fight back.

You?re jumping to a conclusion. . Don?t assume you?re dealing with an incompetent inspector. . The inspector has a good point. . This kind of installation puts him in a bad position for future inspections on that house.

IMO the wire size can be larger than the CB size. It is done all the time for voltage drop and motors.

With his reasoning the wire to first jbox should be 14 then 12. When doing changouts we rarely to never check to see if someone has run a #14 switch leg on circuit that leaves the panel as a 12 so he has a point.

And that?s exactly the problem. . As an inspector he?s thinking the same thing the rest of us inspectors are thinking. . There?s no way in the future he could pick up this problem on a future inspection if the breaker is changed to 20a. . How many electricians choose breaker size of 120v circuits after a changeout based exclusively on homerun wire size ? . I would guess it?s in the 90 plus range.

This inspector recognizes the problem, he?s just using the wrong solution. . He?s trying to use a solution that the NEC doesn?t support him to use. . He needs to institute a department policy of flagging residential installs with mixed gauge circuits. . By flagging, I mean having a notation permanently on the records for that house so that it will automatically come up on future inspection requests. . If his departments system isn?t able to perform that function, they should add it.

David

 

[Minuteman]

In theory, you could go over his head. But, ruffling feathers makes angry birds that will eventually come home to roost.

 

[iwire]

The inspector has a good point. . This kind of installation puts him in a bad position for future inspections on that house.

Absolutely not the installers problem, if the inspector is not comfortable inspecting within the rules then they need to find other work.

Personally I have a real problem considering someone who would change the overcurrent device rating based solely on what they see in a panel a professional.

 

[bphgravity]

Im an electrical design engineer, not a electrical contractor, so i dont usually have to deal with inspectors. What do you do when an inspector is incorrect and wont budge on his answer?

The best thing to do is contact the inspector and arrange a meeting with him and his supervisor. Just don't go over the inspectors head at the first instance of disagreement. It's always best to try resolving the issue with the individual inspector in a courteous and professional manner before other parties get involved. In the event the issue cannot be resolved, make sure a supervisor, project manager, or the company license holder/owner represents the company, not a field worker.

 

[SmithBuilt]

So I wonder how many times this inspector has put a breaker in based on wire size?

Just guessing here "all the time"?

 

[dnem]

Im an electrical design engineer, not a electrical contractor, so i dont usually have to deal with inspectors. What do you do when an inspector is incorrect and wont budge on his answer?

By "won't budge" I'm assuming you're saying that trying is the first step. . I'm surprised how many calls have come into a chief inspector over the years from people questioning a report of one of the inspectors when that haven't contacted that inspector first.

The first question to them is: "How did the inspector reply to your concern ?" . If the answer is: "I wasn't on site for the inspection and I haven't called him." .. Then the reply is: "Call me back if you're still not satisfied after speaking to him."

If you have talked to the inspector, step 2 is call his super. . Many departments with multiple electrical inspectors have a chief electrical inspector. . If there's no chief or no resolution from the call to the chief, step 3 is call the CBO, Certified Building Official. . In Ohio the CBO is the AHJ and he can choose to confirm, modify, or ignore the inspection report of any inspector. . If the CBO agrees with you [in Ohio], it's over. . You win.

If the CBO doesn't agree with you and you want to press on, ask the CBO for an adjudication order, and file an appeal with the local building appeals board. . If you lose that appeal, you can appeal to the state board.

If you win on the CBO level, local appeals board level, or state appeals board level, you get a piece of paper that settles the matter in your favor.

David

 

[dnem]

Personally I have a real problem considering someone who would change the overcurrent device rating based solely on what they see in a panel a professional.

"see in a panel"
How about tearing out the panel and replacing it. . How are the breaker sizes in the new panel determined ? . What percentage of electricians check the wire size against breaker amperages before they tear out the old panel ? . Of that small percentage, how many would assume that the old panel breaker size of 15a on a 12gauge is correct and reinstall that same combo in the new panel ?

Considered a professional or not, they?re out there doing it and inspectors are out there inspecting it.

If you're one of the few, great. . You can tune the rest of this conversation out. . But if you're an inspector, you'll have to inspect 100% of the installations and come up with ways of dealing with less than A+ contractors. . Some of your tools come from the NEC. . Some of them have to be more creative, such as tracking within your computer system of potential problems. . The code usually doesn?t provide much ?what if? protection, but there?s other ways of flagging the ?what ifs? just in case they happen in the future.

David

 

[don_resqcapt19]

David,
So what would you have the installer do when he needs a larger conductor for voltage drop reasons?
Don

 

[winnie]

As far as the code is concerned, this is a _design issue_ and the inspector is not correct that there is any sort of _requirement_ in the code... unless, of course, there is a local amendment to the code. The _National_ Electrical Code is not particularly national, but instead adopted by the local government. The local government can modify the code as it sees fit when adopting it.

As far as the _design issue_ is concerned, I tend to agree with the inspector that this is a potential problem, and that it is entirely appropriate for the inspector to _suggest_ some sort of permanent indication that there are 14ga conductors in the circuit. Simply writing '14ga in circuit' on a bit of romex sheath and hanging this on the conductor to the breaker would be enough to solve the issue. (And yes, if you did this all the time, it is likely that some inspector somewhere would ding you on having that bit of romex sheath used as a label.)

-Jon

 

[iwire]

But if you're an inspector, you'll have to inspect 100% of the installations and come up with ways of dealing with less than A+ contractors.

You pass them when they meet the NEC or you fail them when they don't meet the NEC. Any 'dealing with them' beyond that is beyond your authority.

Some of your tools come from the NEC. . Some of them have to be more creative, such as tracking within your computer system of potential problems.

Dave I have no idea what you mean.

But your future anticipated problems are nothing to do with installer work you are expecting today.

If you want to make note of it for your office thats great but you can not hold up an inspection over this which is what the inspector in this thread has done.

The code usually doesn?t provide much ?what if? protection,

No it does not, and it should not. The NECs only concern is the safety of the installation at the time of installation, future work will be subject to further inspections.

 

[allenwayne]

"see in a panel"
How about tearing out the panel and replacing it. . How are the breaker sizes in the new panel determined ? . What percentage of electricians check the wire size against breaker amperages before they tear out the old panel ? . Of that small percentage, how many would assume that the old panel breaker size of 15a on a 12gauge is correct and reinstall that same combo in the new panel ?

Considered a professional or not, they?re out there doing it and inspectors are out there inspecting it.

If you're one of the few, great. . You can tune the rest of this conversation out. . But if you're an inspector, you'll have to inspect 100% of the installations and come up with ways of dealing with less than A+ contractors. . Some of your tools come from the NEC. . Some of them have to be more creative, such as tracking within your computer system of potential problems. . The code usually doesn?t provide much ?what if? protection, but there?s other ways of flagging the ?what ifs? just in case they happen in the future.

David

Dave that is a what if situation with a capital W,........Why change over to 14 in the first place struck me as strange.Should have been 12 the entire length of the run.Personally I only mix wire size at the panel.Like a rough in for a 8 kw heat strip AHU,and when trim time comes there is a 5 kw unit fused at 30 amps and you are using a breaker that won`t accept anything over 10 wire.I can see his point but he can`t inspect for tomorrow just the install he is inspecting so with the ocpd being 15 he has to pass it.

 

[dcspector]

I have seen this many times #10 0n an sp 20 #12 0n a sp 15....etc. or a # 12 on a (2p 40......A/C unit per manuf. label). As an Inspector myself. I will usually do my home work on the job. If I have no idea what the EC did and he or she were not there at time of Inspection, I simply leave a form.....call me.....and let's go over it, or I will meet you on the job the next day....etc. A lot of Inspectors get a bad wrap due to some "Loose cannon" or "ego tripin" type "power hungry rookie" Inspectors out there. EI's should at least have a minimum of 10yrs. "Valid" Electrical installation experience and be currently ICC Certified as an Electrical Inspector. Other attributes. The EC and EI should carry themselves in a professional manner, admit when they are wrong, and learn from each other.

 

[dnem]

Dave I have no idea what you mean.

But your future anticipated problems are nothing to do with installer work you are expecting today.

If you want to make note of it for your office thats great but you can not hold up an inspection over this which is what the inspector in this thread has done.

Bob, I have no idea what you mean.

Why would there be any ?hold up? on an inspection based on the notations that an inspector takes and includes in a permanent file ? . I don?t understand what you?re talking about.

David